X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Exhibit in DC with no maps Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:34:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   Over the (US) holiday weekend, I managed to get to the DC area and fitted in a trip to the [US] National Gallery of Art and see the exhibit "Trompe L'Oeil"  concerned with what artists considered "illusions" in their art works.  Interesting enough, but it made me think about some - "hybrid"? - prints I had seen in reproduction in which the foreground is a landscape print of a bucolic scene and as the view recedes into the background, it becomes a map.  I've never seen an original and most of the reproductions were in an issue of the old MAP COLLECTORS' CIRCLE.  Such things could end up in print collections as easily as map collections.  Any map collections whose curators read this have any of these items?
 
           J. B. Post
 
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Philip C. Brown" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:20:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Chris,

  Have you seen the review the following mentions?  It is on-line at the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/index.html).  Thoughts on the claim re “Mercator in China”? 

Phil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of John Fazli
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 1:20 AM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection

 

In the New York Times Book Review of 1 December 2002 there is a review of "Lost Discoveries" (author Dick Teresi) that says the book claims that:

"The 'Mercator Projection' was used by Chinese cartographers centuries before the birth of Mercator"

The review is amusing in that it praises a book that sounds manifestly silly (unless you believe that Copernicus and Newton are overshadowed by obscure Arab astronomers and third century Chinese "physicists" !?) but I wondered if anyone on the list had any idea what this "Chinese Mercator Projection" is all about?

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:30:09 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >In the New York Times Book Review of 1 December 2002 there is a >review of "Lost Discoveries" (author Dick Teresi) that says the book >claims that: > >"The 'Mercator Projection' was used by Chinese cartographers >centuries before the birth of Mercator" > >The review is amusing in that it praises a book that sounds >manifestly silly (unless you believe that Copernicus and Newton are >overshadowed by obscure Arab astronomers and third century Chinese >"physicists" !?) but I wondered if anyone on the list had any idea >what this "Chinese Mercator Projection" is all about? I was just reading the same review. Most of the things pointed out in the review are pretty generally known. Yes, it is true that Arab astronomers were far ahead of the West and in fact kept much "Western" learning alive during the dark ages. And the Chinese were centuries ahead of Europe in almost everything except clocks and exploration. Give me sometime in the morning and I will see what I can find on the Mercator connection. More in the morning. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 22:20:15 -0800 From: John Fazli Subject: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In the New York Times Book Review of 1 December 2002 there is a review of "Lost Discoveries" (author Dick Teresi) that says the book claims that: "The 'Mercator Projection' was used by Chinese cartographers centuries before the birth of Mercator" The review is amusing in that it praises a book that sounds manifestly silly (unless you believe that Copernicus and Newton are overshadowed by obscure Arab astronomers and third century Chinese "physicists" !?) but I wondered if anyone on the list had any idea what this "Chinese Mercator Projection" is all about? X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: DSloanRareBooks@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:21:29 EST Subject: [MapHist] Vancouver mystery To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 When cataloguing the first and second editions of Vancouver's A Voyage of Discovery to the North Pacific Ocean, and round the World... (London: G. and J. Robinson, 1798 & London: John Stockdale, 1801), in the second edition (in the Advertisement in Vol. 1) is the publisher's statement about the plates, maps, and charts (emphasis added to underlined portion):

"The Publisher finds it necessary only to state, for the information of the purchasers of this new Edition, that the copper-plates of the charts contained in the folio volume, which accompanied the first Edition, were all stolen, and may therefore be considered as irrecoverably lost. The whole of the Views, except the headlands, are retained. The general chart, and that of the New Discoveries &c. are re-engraved, and will, it is conceived, completely satisfy the majority of his readers. It must, however, be observed, that the other charts are indispensably necessary for such as may hereafter navigate those seas. This Edition was received throughout the requisite corrections of the Editor, John Vancouver, Esq. No work has maintained a higher character in the public estimation than this voyage, and the expense of the quarto Edition could alone have prevented its being universally read. The loss of the Plates, has, of course, greatly enhanced the value of the few Copies of the original Edition, which were not at that time sold. They may however, be had until Christmas next, with the folio volume of charts at Twelve Guineas; but should any then remain they will be advanced to Fifteen Guineas. Piccadilly, 26th October, 1801."

Subsequently, I found this statement in David W. Forbes, Hawaiian National Bibliography, Vol I. 1780-1830 (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press & Sydney, Australia: Hordern House [1998]).  I know not to jump to conclusions, but it makes me wonder if the theft of the engravings for the first edition of Vancouver might have been more than random theft.  Of course, one might be cynical and wonder if the publisher's statement was a marketing device, but I think not.  Here is what Forbes says:

"The Provincial Archives has a copy of the regular issue text [for the first edition of Vancouver] originally owned by Dr. George Goodman Hewett, surgeon's mate of HMS Discovery.  It is interleaved and extensively annotated on both the blank leaves and margins with important comments on the voyage, often highly critical of the actions of Vancouver. Regarding a comment (in the introduction, p. xiv) on charts, plans, and other drawings made by officers, he comments:

'Many of the young Gentlemen were not only able but in the course of the Voyage did take a great many Views &c. but destroyed them all when they understood their Drawings must be given up and Published for the Emolument of Vancouver who had behaved in a most outrageous and Illiberal [sic] manner to most of them.  The few Drawings that are herein were taken by a Mr. Sykes Captn. V's Agent.'"

Probably too much time has passed to make it possible to solve the mystery of the theft of the copper plates used for the remarkable charts, maps, and views found in the first edition of Vancouver's Voyage. Still, I cannot resist asking.  Quien sabe?

Thanks.


X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [131.211.209.148] From: "Robert Braeken" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:38:58 +0100 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2002 10:38:58.0353 (UTC) FILETIME=[05372A10:01C299EF] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 what citation ? >From: "ahudson" >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:24:13 -0500 > >Dear Mapsters, > >The above mystery citation appears in Imago Mundi,# VIII , 1951, p. 55, >five lines from the bottom of the page. > >Search as I might, I cannot find a fuller citation to this ghost series, or >library catalog, or whatever. Based on implications in the text and >footnotes I have perused Destombes' article on Plancius published by the >Societe de Geographie de Hanoi in 1944. No luck. > >Anybody have a clue as to what Geographiae Studioso (folio x) refers? > >It is cited in an article on "The Representation of Northern Europe in the >Worldmap of Petrus Plancius of 1592," by Carl Enckell. My suspicion is >that he is using a shorthand title, and that is why I cannot find it in the >usual sources...like OCLC or the NYPL catalog. > >Many thanks in advance... > >Alice C. Hudson >Chief, Map Division >The Humanities and Social Sciences Library >The New York Public Library >5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 >New York, NY 10018-2788 > >ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 > >http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Chatten met je online vrienden via MSN Messenger. http://messenger.msn.nl/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:41:39 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Whilst at the same time correcting Alice's rendition of the title of the Carl Enckell article in 'IM' - 'The representation of the north of Europe in the worldmap [. . .]' - it might be helpful to transcribe the complete sentence on pp.55-56 for those who do not have 'IM' to hand:- "As correctly stated by M. Destombes, Plancius had used for the compilation of his Worldmap, published by Cornelis Claesz in 1592, all the then available materials which are enumerated in the map-legend No. 77 [italic:] Geographiae Studioso [roman:] (fol. X). In the latter Spanish and Portuguese maps were particularly indicated, but the latter were, however, of inferior importance to the compilation of the map of the coasts of North Europe//[p.56:] (fig. 1). Alice's mention of "five lines from the bottom of the page." actually includes 3 lines of footnotes nos. 1 & 2 (the latter fn continued over on p.56). If one studies, e.g., plate 148 in Rodney Shirley's 'The mapping of the world : early printed world maps 1472-1700' (in whichever of the 3 editions comes to hand) one can identify one of the many text-panels/cartouches as being headed "Geographiae Studioso" (immediately south of Africa, and at top of the pseudo-landmass 'Magallanica'). To me "(fol. X)" refers to sheet 10 of the multi-sheet wall-map. But I leave this for others to confirm/correct/ridicule. And what does Guenter Schilder's series 'Monumenta Cartographica Neerlandica' have to comment on the subject? Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Robert Braeken [mailto:robert_braeken@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: 02 December 2002 10:39 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) what citation ? >From: "ahudson" >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) >Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:24:13 -0500 > >Dear Mapsters, > >The above mystery citation appears in Imago Mundi,# VIII , 1951, p. 55, >five lines from the bottom of the page. > >Search as I might, I cannot find a fuller citation to this ghost series, or >library catalog, or whatever. Based on implications in the text and >footnotes I have perused Destombes' article on Plancius published by the >Societe de Geographie de Hanoi in 1944. No luck. > >Anybody have a clue as to what Geographiae Studioso (folio x) refers? > >It is cited in an article on "The Representation of Northern Europe in the >Worldmap of Petrus Plancius of 1592," by Carl Enckell. My suspicion is >that he is using a shorthand title, and that is why I cannot find it in the >usual sources...like OCLC or the NYPL catalog. > >Many thanks in advance... > >Alice C. Hudson >Chief, Map Division >The Humanities and Social Sciences Library >The New York Public Library >5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 >New York, NY 10018-2788 > >ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 > >http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _________________________________________________________________ Chatten met je online vrienden via MSN Messenger. http://messenger.msn.nl/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR X-Lotus-FromDomain: BNF To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:54:03 +0100 Subject: [MapHist] Maps games X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id MAA21833 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear maphisters, The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) Many thanks for any information about this subject. Catherine Hofmann, Bibliothèque Nationale de France Département des Cartes et Plans _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Philip C. Brown" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:06:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 My inadvertent post to the list was actually a request to a Chinese historian, more familiar than I with the Needham and Ling volume in the History of Science for additional information on this question. In the meanwhile, a quick check of the China materials in the appropriate _History of Cartography_ volume yielded nothing; however, Norman Thrower's _Maps and Civilization_, p. 30, which I am examining for possible classroom use, notes, "It is even claimed that [Chinese{ employed a 'Mercator' projection for astronomical charts, but it was more likely a simple cylindrical projection." My 1999 revision makes use of Needham and Ling, so until I hear to the contrary, I am assuming that this is their conclusion, too. Philip Brown Department of History Ohio State University _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:19:23 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Chinese Mercator projection Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Doug McIlroy ] Subject: Chinese Mercator projection "A kind of Mercator projection centered on the north pole" sounds dubious as a first appearance of the Mercator projection. Transverse Mercator is a good idea if you are interested in a strip along a meridian, but not if you are interested in a disc around a center. With no further facts at hand, I would infer that "a kind of Mercator projection" probably refers to the conformality property of Mercator. That in turn suggests that the words attempt to convey the essence of the stereographic projection, which is quite commonly used in dome-of-the-sky maps, for it portrays individual constellations well. That projection was known to Ptolemey. Doug McIlroy _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: egmond@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:12:07 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Marco van Egmond Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps games Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Catherine,

I borrowed some references from an article by Geert Bekkering (who is the Dutch expert on geographical jigsawpuzzles - e-mail: g.h.bekkering@saxion.nl), which will appear in one of the forthcoming issues of Caert-Thresoor:
- Bekkering, Betsy en Geert (1988), Stukje voor stukje : Geschiedenis van de legpuzzel in Nederland.  Amsterdam : Van Soeren & Co.
- Hannas, Linda (1972), The English Jigsawpuzzle 1760 to 1890.  London : Wayland Publishers.
- Shefrin, Jill (1999), Neatly dissected for the instruction of Young Ladies and Gentlemen in the knowledge of geography, John Spilsbury and Early Dissected Puzzles.  Los Angeles : Cotsen Occasional Press
- Slocum, Jerry & Dieter Gebhardt (1997), Puzzles from Catel’s Cabinet and Bestelmeier’s Magazine 1785 to 1823.  Beverly Hills : The Slocum Puzzle Foundation.

In the cited works are more references to other books and articles.

Best wishes,

Marco van Egmond
Explokart, University of Utrecht

At 12:54 2-12-2002 +0100, you wrote:


Dear maphisters,

The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two
geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some
bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards
games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.)
Many thanks for any information about this subject.

Catherine Hofmann,
Bibliothèque Nationale de France
Département des Cartes et Plans


_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:23:04 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: RE: [MapHist] Teresi - Chinese Mercator Projection Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >My inadvertent post to the list was actually a request to a >Chinese historian, more familiar than I with the Needham and Ling >volume in the History of Science for additional information on >this question. There is mention of "Mercator" like projections in the astronomy and cartographic sections of Needham. However, it always appears in quotes or is referred to as "Mercator-like". The examples in Needham are from 11thC but says the method was used a century earlier. It is not at all clear from what Needham says that these were arrived from the same mathematical direction as Mercator. And from my limited knowledge of Chinese mathematics at the time, I would doubt the same rigor used by Mercator, but then you never know. The Chinese had developed Pascal's triangle by this time. You might also look at Vol 1 and 2 of An Atlas of Ancient Maps of China by Cao Wenru, et. al. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:38:47 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps games X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id OAA02977 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I may be dreaming but wasn't there an article on this in Mercator's World? >Dear maphisters, > >The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two >geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some >bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards >games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) >Many thanks for any information about this subject. > >Catherine Hofmann, >Bibliothèque Nationale de France >Département des Cartes et Plans > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: egmond@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:57:54 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Marco van Egmond Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps games X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA05308 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Catherine, I forgot to tell you that there is also an informative website on this subject: http://www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~museum/puzzles/jigsaw/index.html#jigsaw2 Best wishes, Marco van Egmond Explokart, University of Utrecht At 12:54 2-12-2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear maphisters, > >The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two >geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some >bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards >games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) >Many thanks for any information about this subject. > >Catherine Hofmann, >Bibliothèque Nationale de France >Département des Cartes et Plans > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps games Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:01:09 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

And, Catherine, have you searched the History of Cartography gateway site, specifically at http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/topics.html#Oddities ?  Also, searching the index '(C) Subjects' to the rather obscure 'Imago Mundi Bibliography' one will find, in that for 2001 (vol.53) - under 'Jig-saw puzzle maps' - a reference to 'Bibliography' entry no. 01:53(213) that may be of use to you!

 

Francis

f.hebrert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives']

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Marco van Egmond [mailto:M.vanEgmond@geog.uu.nl]
Sent: 02 December 2002 13:12
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps games

 

Dear Catherine,

I borrowed some references from an article by Geert Bekkering (who is the Dutch expert on geographical jigsawpuzzles - e-mail: g.h.bekkering@saxion.nl), which will appear in one of the forthcoming issues of Caert-Thresoor:

- Bekkering, Betsy en Geert (1988), Stukje voor stukje : Geschiedenis van de legpuzzel in Nederland.  Amsterdam : Van Soeren & Co.

- Hannas, Linda (1972), The English Jigsawpuzzle 1760 to 1890.  London : Wayland Publishers.

- Shefrin, Jill (1999), Neatly dissected for the instruction of Young Ladies and Gentlemen in the knowledge of geography, John Spilsbury and Early Dissected Puzzles.  Los Angeles : Cotsen Occasional Press

- Slocum, Jerry & Dieter Gebhardt (1997), Puzzles from Catel's Cabinet and Bestelmeier's Magazine 1785 to 1823.  Beverly Hills : The Slocum Puzzle Foundation.

In the cited works are more references to other books and articles.

Best wishes,

Marco van Egmond

Explokart, University of Utrecht

At 12:54 2-12-2002 +0100, you wrote:



Dear maphisters,

The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two
geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some
bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards
games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.)
Many thanks for any information about this subject.

Catherine Hofmann,
Bibliothèque Nationale de France
Département des Cartes et Plans


_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

 

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [202.158.24.175] From: "Albertus Pramono" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Question on mapping after 1970s Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:41:24 -1000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2002 14:41:24.0936 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3A79480:01C29A10] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear All, I am new member of Maphist, but not completely new, because I was an passive member about three years ago. I'm a PhD student in geography at Univ. of Hawaii. My interest is the social and political history of cartography in Indonesia (my own country). I'm developing a proposal for my dissertation which will focus in mapping activities after 1970. I'm looking for information on history of mapping in this period. I know this is too recent for a historical inquiry. I appreciate your help. Albertus Pramono _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2.4011 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:13:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Maps games From: Helen Glazer To: Maphist X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA12695 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 >> The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two >> geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some >> bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, >> cards >> games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) >> Many thanks for any information about this subject. We have a "Geographic Educator" puzzle globe on our web site, made in New York c. 1927. The globe comes apart into slices, which have inset jigsaw puzzle maps of the continents in them. View it online at: http://www.georgeglazer.com/globes/novelty/puzzleglb.html Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Helen Glazer, Creative Director George Glazer Gallery Antique Globes, Maps & Prints http://www.georgeglazer.com helen@georgeglazer.com Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø Ø _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:23:57 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Chinese Mercator projection Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Doug McIlroy ] I jumped too fast to conclude that "a kind of Mercator projection centered on the north pole" meant stereographic. The author goes on to say that it was a cylindrical projection. But he clearly refers to the general idea of cylindrical projection as illustrated by, not identified with, the Mercator projection. The interpretation comes from the on-line chapter of the book, which can be reached from the NYT book review page, http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/index.html Doug McIlroy _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:25:15 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Mercator projection on Chinese maps? Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Not distributed automatically because the message is html-encoded. Peter. From: piero falchetta From: Joseph Needham Science and Civilisation in China, vol. 3: Mathematics etc. p. 208: "...the Hsin I Hsiang Fa Yao (New Description of an Armillary Clock) by Su Sung, begun in 1088 and finished in 1094... The second chapter describes a celestial globe and include star maps in which the central place (circumpolar region) and south polar regions are arranged on a cylindrical projection very similar to Mercator's" -- Piero Falchetta falchetta@marciana.venezia.sbn.it Ufficio Carte Geografiche Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana, Venezia Tel +39-041-2407224 (direct) +39-041-5208788 (operator) Visit GeoWeb site: http://geoweb.venezia.sbn.it/geoweb/GWindex.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:47:21 -0600 From: WOODWARD David Subject: [MapHist] Chinese Mercator Projection X-Sender: dawoodwa@wiscmail.wisc.edu (Unverified) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The note that "the China materials in the "appropriate _History of Cartography_ volume yielded nothing" caught my eye. See History of Cartography, Vol 2.2, p. 543, where it says: "Needham's allusion to these charts as being on 'Mercator's" projection has thus led several authors astray." >My inadvertent post to the list was actually a request to a >Chinese historian, more familiar than I with the Needham and Ling >volume in the History of Science for additional information on >this question. > >In the meanwhile, a quick check of the China materials in the >appropriate _History of Cartography_ volume yielded nothing; >however, Norman Thrower's _Maps and Civilization_, p. 30, which I >am examining for possible classroom use, notes, "It is even >claimed that [Chinese{ employed a 'Mercator' projection for >astronomical charts, but it was more likely a simple cylindrical >projection." My 1999 revision makes use of Needham and Ling, so >until I hear to the contrary, I am assuming that this is their >conclusion, too. > >Philip Brown >Department of History >Ohio State University > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- David Woodward Arthur H. Robinson Professor Emeritus Editor, History of Cartography 455 Science Hall 550 North Park Street University of Wisconsin MADISON WI 53706-1491 Phone: 608 262 0505 Fax: 608 263 0762 http://www.geography.wisc.edu/histcart http://www.geography.wisc.edu/woodward _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Ottomantom@cs.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:05:18 EST Subject: [MapHist] Jewish Cartographers To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 for Windows US sub 10504 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dee,
Some more information about the Spanish Jews fleeing to the World of Islam that I have run into. Now that the subject has been brought to mind, I find things I would normally overlook. So far though, nothing about the making of maps or actual maps.

Etudes sur les Moriscos andalous en Tunisie (Madrid, 1973)
M. Eisenbeth, "Les Juifs en Algerie et en Tunisie a l'epoque turque (1516-1830)." Revue africaine 96 (1952): 114-87, 343-84.
I have no idea how you can find these citations. I have not read the material.
       I imagine that many of the migrating Jews ended up in Istanbul. Certainly many manuscripts in Hebrew were collected there and are now in European libraries, most in France. See, Michael Rogers, "The Chester Beatty Suleymanname Again," Persian Painting from the Mongols to the Qajars (London, 2000), 189.
Tom
      
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] Geographiae Studioso (folio X) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:00:52 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 12/02/2002 12:01:24 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I think it is pretty clear the citation is "Geographiae Studioso [folio X]." To what does it refer, and if it is a book or series of some kind, is this the correct notation for it? Does it appear under some other terminology in a library catalog anywhere? Many thanks to maphisters for helping to clarify this mystery citation. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:39:35 EST Subject: [MapHist] Re: Mercator projection on Chinese maps? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10577 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (J(B (J
Since Mercator is the best-known cylindrical projection (and indeed the best-known projection), almost any cylindrical projection tends to be described as the Mercator. Without knowledgeable analysis the following quote merits very little credibility.(B (J
(B (J
p. 208: "...the Hsin I Hsiang Fa Yao (New Description of an Armillary (B (J
Clock) by Su Sung, begun in 1088 and finished in 1094... The second chapter (B (J
describes a celestial globe and include star maps in which the central (B (J
place (circumpolar region) and south polar regions are arranged on a (B (J
cylindrical projection very similar to Mercator's"
(B (J
(B (J
Regards,(B (J
(B (J
daan Strebe(B (J
Geocart author(B (J
(B
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 20:25:14 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Cartofacts Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["John Earley" ] My local liquor store is promoting the ideal Xmas gift for map lovers = everywhere! A "Denoix globe with Napoleon cognac". The description = reads "inside this beautiful collectible globe shaped bottle is Napoleon = Cognac with its distinctively subtle wood and fruity flavours". The = globe is mounted in what appears to be a wooden globe frame. I wonder if my wife will take the hint!! John Earley, Pickering, Ontario _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] RE: Maps games Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:53:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   Virginia Wayland's THE WINSTANLEY GEOGRAPHICAL CARDS (Pasadena: Wayland, [1967]) describes playing cards, if playing cards count as games.  Someone also reproduced such cards, but memory fails me at this point.
 
          J. B. Post
 
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:01:02 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Jewish Cartographers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Jewish Cartographers
Tom,
Thanks so much for the continuing responses. I actually asked on behalf of a customer who was wondering about the report. I thought MapHisters could answer if anyone could.
        Glad you're finding some items in your field. I had no idea Hebrew maps showed up in Istanbul; guess I shouldn't be surprised.
        Thanks so much for the diligence.
        Dee



Dee,
Some more information about the Spanish Jews fleeing to the World of Islam that I have run into. Now that the subject has been brought to mind, I find things I would normally overlook. So far though, nothing about the making of maps or actual maps.

Etudes sur les Moriscos andalous en Tunisie (Madrid, 1973)
M. Eisenbeth, "Les Juifs en Algerie et en Tunisie a l'epoque turque (1516-1830)." Revue africaine 96 (1952): 114-87, 343-84.
I have no idea how you can find these citations. I have not read the material.
       I imagine that many of the migrating Jews ended up in Istanbul. Certainly many manuscripts in Hebrew were collected there and are now in European libraries, most in France. See, Michael Rogers, "The Chester Beatty Suleymanname Again," Persian Painting from the Mongols to the Qajars (London, 2000), 189.
Tom
      

--
The Observatory,ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Our 25th Year
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR X-Lotus-FromDomain: BNF To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:13:42 +0100 Subject: Réf. : Re: [MapHist] Maps games X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id OAA07491 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Thanks for your suggestion. There are two articles about "jig-saw puzzle maps" in Mercator's World : by Gayle Turim (jul-aug. 1997, 2,4) and Barbara Mc Corkle (jul-aug. 2000, 5,4) Best wishes, Catherine Hofmann. John Day le 02/12/2002 14:38:47 Veuillez répondre à maphist@geog.uu.nl Pour : maphist@geog.uu.nl cc : (ccc : Catherine HOFMANN/606/DCS/BnF) Objet : Re: [MapHist] Maps games I may be dreaming but wasn't there an article on this in Mercator's World? >Dear maphisters, > >The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box with two >geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am looking for some >bibliographical references about geographical games using maps (puzzles, cards >games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) >Many thanks for any information about this subject. > >Catherine Hofmann, >Bibliothèque Nationale de France >Département des Cartes et Plans > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:41:35 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: [MapHist] Collaborative Mapping Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I doubt that many on this list check out Slashdot very often, a news service for techies. But this was there this morning and I thought it might be of interest to this list. http://slashdot.org/articles/02/12/02/1922241.shtml?tid=126 Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:25:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Réf. : Re: [MapHist] Maps games X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA24776 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 in 1999 we did an exhibit called Carto-Maine-ia with a large map game and puzzle portion the web exhibit is still on line at http://www.usm.maine.edu/maps/exhibit6/ George On 3 Dec 2002, at 14:13, catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR wrote: > > > Thanks for your suggestion. > There are two articles about "jig-saw puzzle maps" in Mercator's World > : by Gayle Turim (jul-aug. 1997, 2,4) and Barbara Mc Corkle (jul-aug. > 2000, 5,4) > > Best wishes, > Catherine Hofmann. > > > > > John Day le 02/12/2002 14:38:47 > > Veuillez répondre à maphist@geog.uu.nl > > Pour : maphist@geog.uu.nl > cc : (ccc : Catherine HOFMANN/606/DCS/BnF) > Objet : Re: [MapHist] Maps games > > > > I may be dreaming but wasn't there an article on this in Mercator's > World? > > > >Dear maphisters, > > > >The Bibliothèque Nationale de France has just acquired a game box > >with two geographical puzzles (France and Europe, about 1865). I am > >looking for some bibliographical references about geographical games > >using maps (puzzles, cards games, "jeux de l'oie", etc.) Many thanks > >for any information about this subject. > > > >Catherine Hofmann, > >Bibliothèque Nationale de France > >Département des Cartes et Plans > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of > >Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are > >those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the > >University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any > >responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: > >http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the > author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the > author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility > for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: philhoehn@juno.com X-Original-From: philhoehn@juno.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:35:50 GMT To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Maps games X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Maps from two games (one French 1870 and one American 1886) are on the David Rumsey Collection site at: http://www.davidrumsey.com/insightredirector/insightredirector.asp?cid=8&iia=0&ig=David%20Rumsey%20Collection&isl=0&gwisp=0%7CType%7CType%7C1%7CGame%7C2&gwia=3&gc=0 Phil Hoehn, Librarian David Rumsey Collection San Francisco philhoehn@juno.com http://www.davidrumsey.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:12:51 -0800 From: Frances Woodward X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; U) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 A number of years ago Harry Margary produced facsimile cards with maps on them. I think there were two sets. We didn't get them, and I can't remember what the maps were. Fran J.B. Post wrote: > Virginia Wayland's THE WINSTANLEY GEOGRAPHICAL CARDS (Pasadena: > Wayland, [1967]) describes playing cards, if playing cards count as > games. Someone also reproduced such cards, but memory fails me at > this point. J. B. Post -- ******* Frances Woodward Reference Librarian / Map Librarian Rare Books and Special Collections University of British Columbia Library 1956 Main Mall Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z1 Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 E-Mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "V+R Mayer" To: "Maphist" Subject: [MapHist] Map games Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:03:25 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Of course playing cards are games and there are examples of sets with maps. De Fer was not above having his maps, somewhat reduced, on playing cards. The following is the site of one of the largest, if not the largest, playing card museums:
 
 
Roberto L. Mayer
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Rhonda Lemke Sanford" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:16:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Declude-Sender: rsanford@mail.fscwv.edu [63.66.162.160] X-Declude-Spoolname: D45fa8e9c020c76fe.SMD Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hello all, I have a set of these cards. They are a "Facsimile of Morden's Playing Cards First Published 1676." The description on the box says, "Each card bears a small map of either an English or a Welsh County and information about the county depicted" They were published by Harry Margary, Lympne Castle, Kent, 1972. They are quite delightful! I bought these at the Guildhall Library Bookshop in about 1995 (the price sticker still in place says they were 7 pounds) and I also have a poster of them hanging in my office. They are quite the conversation piece. There is some belief that they may have served as memory cards, as they contain information of length, "bredth," circumference of each county, and the latitude of the major city (as well as distance from London), but the more general belief (as I understand it) is that they were used for playing and gambling. Victor Morgan discusses a couple of decks of playing cards in: "Lasting Image of the Elizabethan Era." The Geographical Magazine 52: March (1980): 401-8. All the best, Rhonda Sanford ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Rhonda Lemke Sanford School of Language and Literature Fairmont State College Fairmont, WV 26554 rsanford@mail.fscwv.edu phone 304.367.4593 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frances Woodward" To: Sent: Tuesday, 03 December, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games > A number of years ago Harry Margary produced facsimile cards with maps > on them. I think there were two sets. We didn't get them, and I can't > remember what the maps were. > Fran > > J.B. Post wrote: > > > Virginia Wayland's THE WINSTANLEY GEOGRAPHICAL CARDS (Pasadena: > > Wayland, [1967]) describes playing cards, if playing cards count as > > games. Someone also reproduced such cards, but memory fails me at > > this point. J. B. Post > > -- > ******* > Frances Woodward > Reference Librarian / Map Librarian > Rare Books and Special Collections > University of British Columbia Library > 1956 Main Mall > Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z1 > Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 > E-Mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca > > Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives > Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: F.Herbert@RGS.ORG To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] RE: Maps games [Morden] Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:36:43 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The set of Morden's playing cards was reviewed by me in 'The Geographical Journal', December 1972, 138(4), 527-527. The only useful fact I could offer was to correct the identification of which edition/state of the cards was allegedly being reproduced - a tribute to the facsimile's accompanying notes rather than to my 'green' learning! Francis Herbert f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'/'Unlocking the Archives'] -----Original Message----- From: Rhonda Lemke Sanford [mailto:rsanford@mail.fscwv.edu] Sent: 04 December 2002 02:16 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games Hello all, I have a set of these cards. They are a "Facsimile of Morden's Playing Cards First Published 1676." The description on the box says, "Each card bears a small map of either an English or a Welsh County and information about the county depicted" They were published by Harry Margary, Lympne Castle, Kent, 1972. They are quite delightful! I bought these at the Guildhall Library Bookshop in about 1995 (the price sticker still in place says they were 7 pounds) and I also have a poster of them hanging in my office. They are quite the conversation piece. There is some belief that they may have served as memory cards, as they contain information of length, "bredth," circumference of each county, and the latitude of the major city (as well as distance from London), but the more general belief (as I understand it) is that they were used for playing and gambling. Victor Morgan discusses a couple of decks of playing cards in: "Lasting Image of the Elizabethan Era." The Geographical Magazine 52: March (1980): 401-8. All the best, Rhonda Sanford ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Rhonda Lemke Sanford School of Language and Literature Fairmont State College Fairmont, WV 26554 rsanford@mail.fscwv.edu phone 304.367.4593 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frances Woodward" To: Sent: Tuesday, 03 December, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games > A number of years ago Harry Margary produced facsimile cards with maps > on them. I think there were two sets. We didn't get them, and I can't > remember what the maps were. > Fran > > J.B. Post wrote: > > > Virginia Wayland's THE WINSTANLEY GEOGRAPHICAL CARDS (Pasadena: > > Wayland, [1967]) describes playing cards, if playing cards count as > > games. Someone also reproduced such cards, but memory fails me at > > this point. J. B. Post > > -- > ******* > Frances Woodward > Reference Librarian / Map Librarian > Rare Books and Special Collections > University of British Columbia Library > 1956 Main Mall > Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z1 > Tel: (604) 822-2819 Fax: (604) 822-9587 > E-Mail: franwood@interchange.ubc.ca > > Historical Maps Collection and Cartographic Archives > Arkley Collection of Historical Children's Literature > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:09:21 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist Subject: [MapHist] Very large cartafact Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Very large cartafact! May be seen at: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/photorelease/q4/pr_021114h_2.html -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Paolo Buonora" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Software (Web-based) for Cataloging Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:53:52 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear list members, as it is my first messge to the list, best regards to everyone. First of all, some information concerning my digitization project in the State Archive in Rome: most of materials are maps, scanned at a 300 dpi resolution. All these images are available on the website http://www.asrm.archivi.beniculturali.it/English/index.html Now you have to register to access documents. Registration is free: please contact me if you have any problem in registration (please don't use hyphens or "forbidden chars"). A description of the project can be found in the website, or a shorter one is on http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/projects.html#imago by courtesy of Tony Campbell. By the way, this project use a web-based software - Liardtech Content Server and MrSID formats - that works in a quite similar way than the Luna Imaging application used in the David Rumsey Collection - as Todd Helt said. In fact, there is no technological necessity today to deliverer full resolution images on a CD, unless this is a choice to sell it. Again, best regards Paolo Buonora ----- Original Message ----- From: "by way of Peter van der Krogt " To: Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 4:16 PM Subject: [MapHist] Software (Web-based) for Cataloging > Non-member submission from ["J." ] > > > Good afternoon. > > Here at the University of Leuven (Campusbibliotheek Arenberg) we are = > undertaking the digitalisation of our map collection. These will/should = > be provided to our faculty and students via a web-interface. It is = > necessary for us to provide images as thumbnails with descriptive text, = > larger screen-sized images and, upon request, full-sized images which = > will be provided on CDROM. =20 > > The question: is there a product available which can provide this = > functionality? Any notable experiences? > > Kind regards, > > J. Gysels > Campusbibliotheek Arenberg > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:49:29 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] RE: Maps games Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Alexey Vladimirovich Postnikov ] Dear Maphistors! Back in 1976 Helen Walles has presented me with a set of facsimile cards with maps of Sixteenth Century England' counties. It seems to me that the set was published by the British Library. With best regards, Alexey Postnikov Frances Woodward wrote: > A number of years ago Harry Margary produced facsimile cards with maps > on them. I think there were two sets. We didn't get them, and I can't > remember what the maps were. > Fran > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: jsk@gamewood.net Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:55:14 -0500 Subject: [MapHist] image software, Lewis & Clark To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I received this reply from UVA, regarding the software they used for their exhibit. I have included the response in its entirety, given recent postings as to various software programs available to handle images for online display. Joel Kovarsky Original message received Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:56:09 -0500 Dear Mr. Kovarsky, > George has asked me to respond to your questions about the technology we >used for the exhibit. As you know, the exhibit was marked up in standard >HTML but we did use some different software to render the maps more >dynamically. The software we used is called Mr. Sid. It is a proprietary >software packages that allows one to compress a large image into many >different smaller sizes(thus you are able to zoom in and out of the image). >Their website is as follows: > >http://www.lizardtech.com/ > >The Library of Congress also uses Mr. Sid in many of their American Memory >collections. If you have any other questions relating to the exhibition >technology, please don't hesitate to contact me. > >Yours sincerely, >Bradley J. Daigle >University of Virginia Special Collections Library >Charlottesville, VA 22903-2498 >434 924 4735 >bjd2b@virginia.edu > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:05:30 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: Re: [MapHist] image software, Lewis & Clark Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Joel - This software (Mr. Sid) is becoming one of the preferred choices and is used for our Mercator globe exhibit (http://hcl.harvard.edu/mercatorglobes). Another option is the Luna Imaging Insight software which is used on the David Rumsey site. David Cobb At 12:55 PM 12/6/02 -0500, you wrote: >I received this reply from UVA, regarding the software they used for their >exhibit. I have included the response in its entirety, given recent >postings as to various software programs available to handle images for >online display. > > Joel Kovarsky > > >Original message received Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:56:09 -0500 >Dear Mr. Kovarsky, > > George has asked me to respond to your questions about the technology we > >used for the exhibit. As you know, the exhibit was marked up in standard > >HTML but we did use some different software to render the maps more > >dynamically. The software we used is called Mr. Sid. It is a proprietary > >software packages that allows one to compress a large image into many > >different smaller sizes(thus you are able to zoom in and out of the image). > >Their website is as follows: > > > >http://www.lizardtech.com/ > > > >The Library of Congress also uses Mr. Sid in many of their American Memory > >collections. If you have any other questions relating to the exhibition > >technology, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > > >Yours sincerely, > >Bradley J. Daigle > >University of Virginia Special Collections Library > >Charlottesville, VA 22903-2498 > >434 924 4735 > >bjd2b@virginia.edu > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: dyallen@notes.cc.sunysb.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.11 July 24, 2002 Subject: [MapHist] Map Bibliographies on the Web To: Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:13:10 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on nmta.cc.sunysb.edu/DoIT(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 12/06/2002 04:13:13 PM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id WAA05884 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I have posted several bibliographies, mostly dealing with New York State Maps, using a program called Reference Web Poster. The bibliographies are searchable by keyword, and some of them contain numerous links to digital images. They can be accessed at http://www.sunysb.edu/libmap/bibs.htm The bibliographies will obviously be mainly of interest to those who work with maps in New York State. Other map librarians may want to investigate Reference Web Poster as a way to make widely available lists of uncataloged maps produced using database management programs. Reference Web Poster works with files in EndNote, ProCite, and Reference Manager formats. There are some bugs and glitches in the bibliographies, both of the bibliographic and computer kind. Many of the problems were created by the bibliographies being formatted in ways that Reference Web Poster has trouble processing. Nonetheless, they are usable. It is best to go to "advanced search" and then search by either "all indexed fields" or "all non-indexed fields." Some records do not display with titles. Click on icon on left to display the full text. Here is a description of the bibliographies taken from the web page referenced above: 1. LIGEOBIB.ENL  A bibliography of publications relating to Long Island Geology.  Produced by students of the Geosciences Dept. under the Supervision of Professor Gilbert Hanson. 2.  nysmaps.enl  A fairly comprehensive bibliography of New York State Maps produced before 1830.  Includes many unique manuscript maps held by a number of institutions.  Most references are annotated, and multiple holding libraries are often shown for printed maps (although it is not a complete union list).  Includes publications that have facsimiles of rare maps, and some links to digital images.  Compiled by David Allen. 3. Specmaps.enl  A list of New York State maps in the Dept. of Special Collections at Stony Brook University.  Approximately 1700 maps, mostly published between 1830 and 1940.  Compiled by David Allen with additions and revisions by Kristen Nyitray. 4.  Digimaps.enl  Database with links to digital images of New York State Maps on the Web.  Searchable version of Map Collection's "New York State Map Pathfinder."  Compiled by Jessica McEachern under supervision of David Allen. 5.  Docmaps.enl  2,196 maps from New York State legislative documents prior to 1940.  List is incomplete because Stony Brook has only partial holdings of this set, but this appears to be the only list of these materials available.  Compiled by Jessica McEachern under supervision of David Allen. 6.  Soils.enl  1,492 soil maps published prior to 1950 from Stony Brook's nationwide collection.  Compiled by Jessica McEachern under supervision of David Allen. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Organization: The Ohio State University Center for Mapping Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:30:21 -0500 From: "Duane F. Marble" Organization: OSU Center for Mapping User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (nscd2) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: maphist Subject: [MapHist] A digital product with some historic Civil War maps included Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 A digital product with some historic maps included: National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) Digital Products Item Date USGS Stock No. Antietam Battlefield-Professional Military Education 2002 112869 The CD contains maps depicting the Union and Confederate unit positions and movements during the Antietam battle of the Civil War. It has a current USGS image and a topographic quadrangle of the area, 14 historical maps showing unit positions aover the course of the battle, and two different digital data viewers: ERDAS Imagizer and Mr SID Geoviewer. See: http://mac.usgs.gov/mac/nimamaps/dodnima.html -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 Two thoughts: "Time is Nature's way of stopping things happening all at once." "God invented space so that not everything had to happen in Columbus." _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:44:27 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Temporary map cataloguing post in British Library X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id MAA15885 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Hall, Debbie" ] \ [Please excuse the cross-posting] ANNOUNCEMENT OF JOB VACANCY BRITISH LIBRARY (LONDON), MAP COLLECTIONS Accessing the world's knowledge We reach millions of people through our online and document supply services, reading rooms, and exhibition galleries, helping them to advance knowledge and enrich their lives. Join us as we move our knowledge, collections, expertise and cultural heritage into the digital age. MAP CATALOGUER (Fixed term contract) London, U.K. c.£16.5k per annum. The British Library Map Collections has an opening for a map cataloguer, to catalogue modern maps, atlases and related materials in an automated environment. A degree in geography, history, library studies or a suitable equivalent is essential; a library qualification is highly desirable. Experience working with maps or in library cataloguing using international standards (AACR2, UKMARC/MARC21) is required (having both would be a plus). This full-time post is available on a fixed term contract for six months from date of appointment. Further information about the post can be obtained from April Carlucci on +44 (0)20 7412 7062, or Debbie Hall on +44 (0)20 7412 7525. For more information view http://www.bl.uk/about/vacancies.html Please reply by sending a letter of application and a CV to: The British Library, Human Resources, 96 Euston Road, London NW1 2DB or email bl-personnel@bl.uk quoting reference number P02-19-2002 by Friday, 20 December 2002. The British Library is an Equal Opportunities employer. We recognise the benefit of employing a diverse workforce. Applicants are considered solely on the basis of their merits and suitability for the job. ************************************************************************** Free exhibitions at the British Library Galleries : 50 Years of Number Ones : Listen to any one of over 930 pop music chart toppers 1952-2002 (from 11 October) Magic Pencil : Children's Book Illustration Today (from 1 November) original graphic work of 13 contemporary artists ************************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: akermanj@mail.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:27:57 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jim Akerman Subject: [MapHist] summer institute for teachers Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear fellow Maphisters, especially US members, I'd appreciate it very much if you would pass the information below on to any schoolteachers you know who may be interested.  Many thanks.

Jim Akerman

************************************************************

The Newberry Library Offers “Everyday Maps” Institute for Teachers
June 30-July 25, 2003

The Newberry Library’s Hermon Dunlap Smith Center for the History of Cartography invites school teachers across the United States to apply for its 2003 NEH summer institute, “Everyday Maps: Teaching and Historical Perspectives.”  The institute, led by James R. Akerman, will explore the culture and history of commonplace maps and will help teachers develop skills and strategies for using these maps to teach a variety of school subjects.  The institute will be held at the Newberry Library, in the heart of Chicago’s Near North Side, from June 30 to July 25, 2003.  During the four weeks of the institute a distinguished faculty from the fields of geography, history, art history, and literature will lead participants in a program of lectures, workshops, and collective discovery of the most common types of maps, including atlases, pedagogic maps, transportation cartography, and maps in advertising, literature, and the arts.  Participants will have the opportunity to research and develop their own lesson plans or activities utilizing the Newberry’s internationally renowned collection of historic maps.

Teachers of a wide variety of courses and grade levels, at public and private schools, are encouraged to apply.  Completed applications must be postmarked no later than Monday, March 3, 2003.  Successful applicants will receive a stipend of $2,800 to help defray travel and housing expenses.  For further information and application materials, contact Susan Hanf, The Newberry Library, 60 W. Walton Street, Chicago, IL 60610; e-mail hanfs@newberry.org; phone 312-255-3659.  Information and application materials are also available at www.newberry.org/K12/everydaymaps.  “Everyday Maps” is supported by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities, an independent federal agency.

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: akermanj@mail.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:36:12 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jim Akerman Subject: [MapHist] fellowships at the Newberry Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Short-Term Fellowships in the History of Cartography for 2003-04 Thanks to the generous support of Arthur and Jan Holzheimer, the Newberry Library is able each year to offer short-term fellowships in the History of Cartography for scholars wishing to work in the Library's internationally renowned map collections. The fellowships are open to applicants holding a Ph.D. and to Ph.D. students at the dissertation stage. Proposed projects must be related to the history of cartography and require cartographic materials in the Newberry Library. The fellowships are restricted to work in residence in the Library for periods of two weeks to two months. A stipend of $1,200 per month accompanies the fellowship. The application deadline for awards to be granted in 2003-04 is February 20, 2003. For further information contact the Committee on Awards, The Newberry Library, 60 West Walton Street, Chicago, IL 60610-3380; e-mail research@newberry.org; or visit our website at http://www.newberry.org/nl/research/L3rfellowships.html. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Novel in part about maps Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:15:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
   While not as central to the plot as in Arturo Perez-Reverte's THE NAUTICAL CHART, cartographic materials are featured prominently in Ross King's EX-LIBRIS (Chatto & Windus, 1998 / Walker, 2001), something of a mystery set in the year 1660 concerning a mysterious manuscript.  Worth reading if one has the time.
 
        J. B. Post
 
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Evelyn Edson" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Another novel in part about maps Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:32:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714

Umberto’s Eco’s new novel Baudolino also features maps.  He even includes drawings of a Beatus map and Cosmas Indicopleustes’ map in his text.  The title character, among other adventures, embarks upon a quest for the kingdom of Prester John. 

 

Evelyn Edson

Professor of History

Piedmont Virginia Community College

501 College Drive

Charlottesville, VA 22902

(434) 961-5384

 

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:52:33 -0800 Subject: [MapHist] More recent fiction about maps From: "Penny L. Richards" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At least two of the short stories in Jhumpa Lahiri's _Interpreter of Maladies_ (2000, Pulitzer Prize for fiction) feature map use as part of the plot: "Sexy" finds a couple flirting in Boston's Mapparium, looking to India (where the man is from), and in another part of the story the woman studies a map of India she finds in a discarded copy of _The Economist_, hoping to understand her lover's life better by focusing on that map; while in "When Mr. Pirzada Came to Dine," an immigrant father teaches his young American-born daughter about the difference between Pakistan and India using a wall map. I'm still waiting to get to Andrea Barrett's _Servants of the Map: Stories_ (2002); and Marilyn Sides' _The Island of the Mapmaker's Wife and Other Tales_ (1996; out of print but I own it already). For fans of short fiction by women, there seems to be an abundance of cartographica in recent offerings. Just in case anyone is still stumped for a literary carto-gift this time of year... Penny L. Richards PhD Research Scholar, UCLA Center for the Study of Women Co-editor, H-Education and H-Disability turley2@earthlink.net _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:54:08 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] John Docktor's Server not working Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["John Docktor" ] My internet provider's server has crashed and been off line for at least 18 hours. They are trying to fix it. Meanwhile you will not be able to connect with Calendars of Cartographic Events: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ and I cannot receive any e-mail. Please be patient, and hopefully I will soon be back online. John Docktor _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "van der heijden" To: Subject: [MapHist] Histoire universelle Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:03:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Dear all
we have found on a French map of the Netherlands "Hist. Univ.Part. Mod.Tom 100". Does anyone know the exaxct title, publisher, place and date of this publication ?
Thank you
Henk van der Heijden
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Hubbarmaps@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:54:23 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] Histoire universelle To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 126 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id NAA03298 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 13/12/02 12:26:43 W. Europe Standard Time, h.a.vander.heijden@12move.nl writes: << Dear all we have found on a French map of the Netherlands "Hist. Univ.Part. Mod.Tom 100". Does anyone know the exaxct title, publisher, place and date of this publication ? Thank you Henk van der Heijden >> I'm only aware of one set of Histoire Universelle that runs over 100 volumes and that is: Histoire Universelle, depuis le commencement du monde jusqu'a present; Composée en Anglois par une Société de Gens de Lettres.. . . novellement traduit en françois (ou plutôt retouchée par le Tourneur, Dussieux et autres), Paris 1779-91, 126 vol, in 8°. Fig.Amsterdam, 1742-92, et Paris, 1802. Brunet, 5th ed. Manuel du Libraire [21300] Jason Hubbard _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" To: Subject: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:00:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The following is of great interest. It seems to indicate publication is in progress. Any further information would be appreciated. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Wickenden" To: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" ; "David Jones" Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:21 AM Subject: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain > Ron and David -- Here's the relevant extract > about the Greek map I mentioned to-day! > > From a review of Posidippi Pellaei Quae Supersunt > Omnia, by Richard Hunter, in the Times Literary > Supplement, November 29 2002, p. 24: > > "From the same mysterious source as the Poseidippos, > an even more unexpected treasure is still to be > published: part of the description of Spain from > the work of Artemidorus of Ephesus (c. 100 BC), an > important geographical treatise previously known > only from allusions and references in later authors. > The text, preserved on a roll more than two-and-a- > half metres long, and in an unusually large format, > is illustrated by part of a map of Spain. It now > ranks as the oldest Greek map known, but looks > startlingly modern with its layout of rivers, roads > and human settlements. Curiously, this papyrus > seems not to have gone into circulation, but to > have remained in the workshop where the map was > drawn ...." > > Now you know as much as I do! > > Greatly enjoyed a look at the Homem atlas -- > spectacular! > > Best, > > Nick > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:59:46 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 11:00 AM 12/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
The following is of great interest.  It seems to indicate publication is in
progress.  Any further information would be appreciated.

Ron

See: Barbel Kramer: The Earliest Known Map of Spain (?) and the Geography of Artemidorus of Ephesus on Papyrus. Imago Mundi, vol. 53, 2001, 115-20.

From the introductory paragraph, it appears that this is an English summary of an earlier article appearing in 1998 in Archiv fur Papyrusforschung.

                 Joel Kovarsky
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:44:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Thanks for that Joel.  Something else to read. 
 
Ron
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain

At 11:00 AM 12/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
The following is of great interest.  It seems to indicate publication is in
progress.  Any further information would be appreciated.

Ron

See: Barbel Kramer: The Earliest Known Map of Spain (?) and the Geography of Artemidorus of Ephesus on Papyrus. Imago Mundi, vol. 53, 2001, 115-20.

From the introductory paragraph, it appears that this is an English summary of an earlier article appearing in 1998 in Archiv fur Papyrusforschung.

                 Joel Kovarsky
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:23:20 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id JAA17398 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Luis Carlos JUAN TOVAR" ] See: ARTEMIDOR IM ZEICHENSAAL. EINE PAPYRUSROLLE MIT TEXT, LANDKARTE UND SKIZZENBÜCHERN AUS SPÄTHELLENISTISCHER ZEIT por Claudio Gallazzi (Mailand) y Bärbel Kramer (Trier) Online: http://www.arqueohispania.org/articulos/artemidor.htm and in spanish: Artemidoro en clase de dibujo. Un papiro con texto, mapa y dibujos de tiempo helenístico tardío. por Claudio Gallazi y Bärbel Kramer http://www.arqueohispania.org/journal/num0/not2.htm Luis Carlos JUAN TOVAR ARQUEOHISPANIA ARQUEOHISPANIA@teleline.es ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" To: Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain > The following is of great interest. It seems to indicate publication is in > progress. Any further information would be appreciated. > > Ron > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fw: Artemidorus of Ephesus, map of Spain Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:11:42 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The article by Bärbel Kramer in the 2001 issue of Imago Mundi (vol. 53, pp.115-20) has already been mentioned. However, it was not a summary but a commissioned article slanted specifically to Imago Mundi's (i.e. map history's) interests. Inevitably, it covered much of the same ground. Tony Campbell Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd **************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Imago Mundi c/o 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW UK Phone: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 Web site: http://ihr.sas.ac.uk/maps/imago.html ******************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:34:09 +0000 From: Ashley Baynton-Williams Organization: MapForum.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: MapHist Subject: [MapHist] Ashley Baynton-Williams Catalogue 1 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ashley Baynton-Williams is pleased to announce the launch of his new website - http://www.baynton-williams.com - and his first web-based catalogue. Catalogue 1 is devoted to antique maps of the United Kingdom, and contains a good selection of broadsheet maps. Catalogue 2, under preparation, will cover the rest of the world. Ashley Baynton-Williams Editor@mapforum.com Email: abwmaps@btopenworld.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR X-Lotus-FromDomain: BNF To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:34:23 +0100 Subject: [MapHist] Plans of Paris - exhibition and inventory X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA18992 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Second announcement (with some complements) : Les plans de Paris des origines 1493 à la fin du XVIIIe siècle, études, carto-bibliographie, catalogue par Jean Boutier avec la collaboration de Marine Sibille et de Jean-Yves Sarazin, Paris, BnF, 2002. ISBN : 2-7177-2230-0 The Maps of Paris, from their origins (1493) to the end of the 18th century is the result of twenty years of research by the historian Jean Boutier. It is a complete catalogue of the general maps and topographical views of Paris, established after a close examination of the map collections in the major libraries of Europe and North-America. This large scale inquiry was begun by the author in the Map Department of the Bibliothèque Nationale de France and continued with its support and the assistance of Marine Sibille and Jean-Yves Sarazin. For the first time an up-to-date comprehensive iconography of Paris has been put together. It consists of 371 original documents and their multiple copies. Jean Boutier?s path breaking history of the cartography of Paris is based on this exhaustive corpus. The Maps of Paris is the first carto-bibliography of the city. Jean Boutier?s united catalogue is an ordered presentation of 371 families of maps and topographical views, a genealogy of the Parisians cartographic operations and an inventory of editions of several thousands of documents identified and localized one by one. Furthermore, the author has also judged it necessary to examine published works (histories, architectural treaties, cosmographies, guide-books and almanachs) which often conceal unknown maps. In order to explain their origins and their diffusion, Jean Boutier has examined other works : declarations, prospectuses, notes and articles in contemporary newspapers and journal about cartographers, engravers or publishers. To mark the publication of this ambitious project, the Bibliothèque National de France has organized an exhibition, "Dreams of a Capital", a selection of the most exceptional cartographical projects for the adornment of Paris during the 17th and 18th centuries : Dreams of a capital : Paris and the plans for its adornment Exhibition organized by Jean-Yves Sarazin, curator in the Department of Maps, Bibliothèque Nationale de France Location : Bibliothèque Nationale de France, Crypt, 58 rue de Richelieu, Paris IIe 28 January - 20 April 2003, Tuesday to Saturday, 10 a.m.-7 p.m., admission free A meticulous selection of cartographic documents on Paris makes it possible to open the gates to the mental world of the architects-urban designers who planned the development and adornment of Paris between 1675 and 1815. The exhibition covers projects which range from the detail of a district to the more ambitious plans aimed at redesigning the urban landscape. Since the 17th century, there was no lack of ideas for reducing the traffic blocks, the noises, the smells and dangers, but they were seldom put in application. Some of them gave birth to immediately visible works : covering of the Great Drain, development of the wharfs, market halls, church courts, squares, bridges and main streets, the broadening of roads by the alignment of houses. The projects were always limited in space and time. Under Napoleon III and with Haussmann as prefect of the department of the Seine, the Parisians lived through the most impressive transformation of their city. Works were begun continuing the ideas of the beginning of the 19th century and the more ancient ideas conceived by writers like Voltaire, La Font de Saint-Yenne, Gabriel Bory, by architects like Laurent Boisson, Pierre-Alexis Delamair, Pierre Patte, Pierre-Louis Moreau, Charles de Wailly, François Cointeraux. These concerns are of relevance even today as, far from stagnating, the capital continues to attract a population always worried about its well-being. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Davies, Surekha" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Bartolomeu Velho maps, 1561 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:52:28 -0000 Importance: high X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear all, > I'm trying to confirm the location of Bartolomeu Velho's group of 4 charts > of 1561, which form a planisphere. According to Portugaliae Monumenta > Cartographica (1960, vol 2), it is in the Biblioteca Accademia di Belle > Arti, Florence. By chance, I found a website which says it is at the > Istituto e Museo di Storia della Scienza, Florence. Does anyone know where > it is today, and what its library pressmark is? I have emailed both > institutions, and have attempted to search their on-line catalogues, but > haven't managed to pin it down yet. I'm not sure that the addresses I > wrote to were correct, and I have a fast-approaching deadline, so any > suggestions would be most welcome. > > (The website: http://www.cncdp.pt/oceanos/n33/artigos/garcia/garciai.html) > > Many thanks, > > Surekha Davies > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ms Surekha Davies > Curator/Cataloguer, British Library Map Collections > 96 Euston Road > London > NW1 2DB > UNITED KINGDOM > > Tel: +44 20 7412 7060 > Fax: +44 20 7412 7780 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ************************************************************************** Free exhibitions at the British Library Galleries : 50 Years of Number Ones : Listen to any one of over 930 pop music chart toppers 1952-2002 (from 11 October) Magic Pencil : Children's Book Illustration Today (from 1 November) original graphic work of 13 contemporary artists ************************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: RE: [MapHist] Ashley Baynton-Williams Catalogue 1 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:56:41 -0500 Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Ashley Baynton-Williams Catalogue 1 Thread-Index: AcKk51wMjg4m7FJTQEC2NVb8JtDA0AAPFeyQ From: "Hyman, John" To: X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id RAA01826 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ashley: I forwarded a cheque today for the three hill farm maps from Murray's etc. They are welcome for more than the subject matter; I find them appealing for their quality and condition. Sometimes a map can transcend its subject. That's pleasure. Any progress on locating number thirty-one from Mackenzie or is that, as the proverb goes, in the lap of the gods and they are standing up. Have a lovely season. John -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Baynton-Williams [mailto:Ashley.bw@BTINTERNET.COM] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:34 AM To: MapHist Subject: [MapHist] Ashley Baynton-Williams Catalogue 1 Ashley Baynton-Williams is pleased to announce the launch of his new website - http://www.baynton-williams.com - and his first web-based catalogue. Catalogue 1 is devoted to antique maps of the United Kingdom, and contains a good selection of broadsheet maps. Catalogue 2, under preparation, will cover the rest of the world. Ashley Baynton-Williams Editor@mapforum.com Email: abwmaps@btopenworld.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*Liber-GdC" , "*Lismaps" , "*MapHist" , "*Maps-L" Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi/Routledge partnership Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:42:28 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 [Posted to Liber GdC, Lismaps, MapHist, Maps-L - please excuse duplication] Imago Mundi: the International Journal for the History of Cartography [ISSN 0308 5694] Important announcement ------------------------- Imago Mundi is delighted to announce a five-year publishing partnership with Routledge Journals, to start with the next issue of the journal (No. 55, July 2003). Routledge is part of the long-established and well-respected Taylor & Francis publishing group. Based in the UK, they also have a Philadelphia office. Our agreement will guarantee the financial future of IM, while Routledge's promotion of the journal will ensure that it becomes far better known and far more widely read than at present - of obvious advantage to those who write for it. Readers of IM will not notice any significant change. Routledge will be handling the business side but Imago Mundi Ltd retains the copyright and Catherine Delano Smith will continue to have complete editorial independence. Personal subscribers, however, will find that things are more convenient. The sterling price will remain unchanged (for the 11th year in succession) while the dollar equivalent will be slightly reduced (making the figure actually lower than it was in 1992)! Online and credit card facilities will simplify the process of payment, particularly for those in Europe. A professionally-staffed office will ensure a prompter response than before, and Airspeed shipments will mean that overseas subscribers receive their volume considerably quicker than in the past. The main difference is that institutional subscribers (and hence those who use the libraries in question) will be able to access IM online. So, from next year, IM will be on the web, and fully searchable - making it all the more important that your library subscribes. The search continues for an effective way to convert the back issues (1935- ) and mount them on the web. It is hoped that an announcement can be made about that during the first half of next year. Finally, it has been agreed with Routledge that, from 2004, IM will appear twice a year. This will enable the Bibliography and Reviews sections to be even more up to date, and allow articles to be published with even less delay. If you a subscriber, Routledge will be contacting you directly in the first part of next year. You do not need to take any action yourself. If you would like information from Taylor & Francis (Routledge) about a new subscription, their email is: orders@tandf.co.uk Tony Campbell Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:59:04 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: RE: [MapHist] Do NOT REPLY to Maphist for Ashley Baynton-Williams Catalogue 1 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Ashley forgot the sentence * DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. MAKE SURE ANY MESSAGE COMES TO ME AND IS NOT SENT TO THE ENTIRE LIST in his message. Please note you have to add this sentence in announcements like this to prevent private answers to the list, as John Hyman did. This is all explained in the rules on the MapHist webpage, the address is in the header of each MapHist message and also in the footer text added to each message. Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:21:36 -0600 From: WOODWARD David Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 X-Sender: dawoodwa@wiscmail.wisc.edu (Unverified) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id TAA09420 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters: Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway. David ________________________________________ Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company." Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence level age range is AD 1411-1468. http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:21:36 -0600 From: WOODWARD David Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 X-Sender: dawoodwa@wiscmail.wisc.edu (Unverified) To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id TAA09420 List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Maphisters: Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway. David ________________________________________ Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company." Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence level age range is AD 1411-1468. http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.152.32.168] From: "Hardy LeBel" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 14:12:39 -0500 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2002 19:13:06.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[549B4D30:01C2A600] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Dear All,
 
There was a very interesting seminar on the authenticity of the Vinland Map last week at the Explorers Club in Manhattan.  The presenters were only from the pro-authenticity camp, but quite compelling.  Nevertheless, an interesting evening.  I hadn't considered the possibility of an Eskimo map making tradition.  There was one in Oceania for millennia, why not the Arctic.
 
Hardy F. LeBel
 
----- Original Message -----
From: WOODWARD David
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:46 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45
 
Dear Maphisters:

Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with
the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway.

David
________________________________________

Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map

by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle

ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment
bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library
at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the
Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company."
Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly
argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of
Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's
voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's
authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and
Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have
determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by
accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated
calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence
level age range is AD 1411-1468.

http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: np003a5704@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:40:20 +0000 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Nick Pelling Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id UAA11128 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 12:21 17/12/02 -0600, WOODWARD David wrote: > The one-sigma calibrated calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: > the 95% confidence level age range is AD 1411-1468. Note that this makes the one-sigma range 1423-1445, not 1433-1445 (as in the Subject line). _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:07:56 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id WAA13062 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (This message was not distributed automatically, because it contains an administrative word in the first lines. I changed this by adding a hyphen and replacing a u with a *, Peter) From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 Dear MapHisters, As David suggests, the recent radio-carbon dating of the Vinland Map parchment comes as no surprise to anyone who has found suggestions that the map was drawn on parchment from the same period as the map's "sister manuscripts" -- possibly from the same original volume. In such a sea of un-s*bstantiated assertions as the discussion about the Vinland Map has been from the start, it is obviously useful to have the parchment date reasonably well documented, and for that we should be grateful to Donahue, Olin, and Harbottle. However, that date has no bearing one way or another on the authenticity issue, as David indicates, and as common sense dictates. If someone last year found a stack of early-sixteenth-century paper and proceeded to embellish each sheet with a drawing in the style of Albrech Dürer, the result would be twenty-first-century fakes on old paper. Once the age of the paper had been reliably established, any subsequent scholarly focus would have to be on the images applied to the paper. Kirsten A. Seaver >Dear Maphisters: > >Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with >the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway. > >David >________________________________________ > >Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map > >by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle > >ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment >bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library >at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the >Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company." >Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly >argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of >Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's >voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's >authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and >Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have >determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by >accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated >calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence >level age range is AD 1411-1468. > >http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi/Routledge partnership Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:44:45 -0000 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Tony Congratulations--to you and to Catherine--on what sounds like an important broad-front advance for Imago Mundi in strategic and financial terms. Best wishes Rodney Shirley rws@dial.pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tony campbell" To: "*Liber-GdC" ; "*Lismaps" ; "*MapHist" ; "*Maps-L" Sent: 16 December 2002 18:42 Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi/Routledge partnership > [Posted to Liber GdC, Lismaps, MapHist, Maps-L - please excuse duplication] > > Imago Mundi: the International Journal for the History of Cartography [ISSN > 0308 5694] > > Important announcement > ------------------------- > > Imago Mundi is delighted to announce a five-year publishing partnership with > Routledge Journals, to start with the next issue of the journal (No. 55, > July 2003). Routledge is part of the long-established and well-respected > Taylor & Francis publishing group. Based in the UK, they also have a > Philadelphia office. Our agreement will guarantee the financial future of > IM, while Routledge's promotion of the journal will ensure that it becomes > far better known and far more widely read than at present - of obvious > advantage to those who write for it. > > Readers of IM will not notice any significant change. Routledge will be > handling the business side but Imago Mundi Ltd retains the copyright and > Catherine Delano Smith will continue to have complete editorial > independence. > > Personal subscribers, however, will find that things are more convenient. > The sterling price will remain unchanged (for the 11th year in succession) > while the dollar equivalent will be slightly reduced (making the figure > actually lower than it was in 1992)! Online and credit card facilities > will simplify the process of payment, particularly for those in Europe. A > professionally-staffed office will ensure a prompter response than before, > and Airspeed shipments will mean that overseas subscribers receive their > volume considerably quicker than in the past. > > The main difference is that institutional subscribers (and hence those who > use the libraries in question) will be able to access IM online. So, from > next year, IM will be on the web, and fully searchable - making it all the > more important that your library subscribes. > > The search continues for an effective way to convert the back issues > (1935- ) and mount them on the web. It is hoped that an announcement > can be made about that during the first half of next year. > > Finally, it has been agreed with Routledge that, from 2004, IM will appear > twice a year. This will enable the Bibliography and Reviews sections to be > even more up to date, and allow articles to be published with even less > delay. > > If you a subscriber, Routledge will be contacting you directly in the first > part of next year. You do not need to take any action yourself. > > If you would like information from Taylor & Francis (Routledge) about > a new subscription, their email is: orders@tandf.co.uk > > Tony Campbell > Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:48:04 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one sta
Hello, All,

        David passed on the message that the parchment of the Vinland Map is authentic. That reminded me of the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul where some wonderful old maps were displayed. Asking an expert, I was told that several recent immigrants were quite skilled at buying old parchment, carefully scraping off the information on one side drawing a map on the other. Voila, an old map on authentic parchment.
        As to Hardy's remark, I can assure him that there is a very ancient map-making tradition in all Native groups, including the Eskimo (or Inuit, Inupiat, or Yu'pik as you prefer). Their maps were mental and far more complicated than European ones. I have been working in the field for about four years.
        Greetings of the Season to all, and best wishes for a most satisfying new year,
        Dee

 
There was a very interesting seminar on the authenticity of the Vinland Map last week at the Explorers Club in Manhattan.  The presenters were only from the pro-authenticity camp, but quite compelling.  Nevertheless, an interesting evening.  I hadn't considered the possibility of an Eskimo map making tradition.  There was one in Oceania for millennia, why not the Arctic.
 
Hardy F. LeBel
 
----- Original Message -----
From: WOODWARD David
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:46 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45
 
Dear Maphisters:

Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with
the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway.

David
________________________________________

Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map

by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle

ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment
bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library
at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the
Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company."
Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly
argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of
Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's
voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's
authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and
Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have
determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by
accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated
calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence
level age range is AD 1411-1468.

http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

--
The Observatory,ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Our 25th Year
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:17:21 EST Subject: [MapHist] Re: Vinland Map Parchment Age... To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10577 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 (J(B (J
Colleagues,(B (J
(B (J
I am skeptical of the map's authenticity. However, I wish to post an observation.(B (J
(B (J
Radiocarbon dating made its debut in 1949 as the first direct method of dating organic materials. Prior to that time there was no particular reason to believe that an object could ever be dated directly without explicit provenance. Theoretical considerations existed since about 1945, but remained unknown at large until the method was introduced in 1949.(B (J
(B (J
The Vinland Map surfaced in 1957. When the image was committed to the medium remains unknown. Presumably it is either an authentic 15th century document or a 20th century fake. It is difficult to procure virgin materials of proper age and even more difficult to be certain you have procured materials of proper age. If the document were forged before 1949, then the forger would have felt no compulsion to use leather from 1435, since there was no way to determine the age of the medium, nor any reason to believe there ever would be a way. Any sufficiently ancient-looking scrap of leather would do. That is not what has happened, however. The age of the medium matches the age of the purported content remarkably accurately.(B (J
(B (J
If it could be shown somehow that the document definitely was not executed between 1949 and 1957, then the onus would fall upon us skeptics to explain why the forger tooks such pains to procure a medium of precisely the right age. There simply would have been no motive to but many not to.(B (J
(B (J
Naturally I do expect we will be subjected to such a task as annoying as arguing the unnecessarily prudent acts of a hoaxter. Nevertheless I do want to point out to proponents of the documents authenticity than they could make skeptics' lives rather more uncomfortable if they could establish the document's provenance in the decade preceding its modern appearance.  (B (J
(B (J
Regards,(B (J
daan Strebe(B (J
(B (J
Dear Maphisters:

Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with
the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway.

David
________________________________________

Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map

by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle

ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment
bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library
at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the
Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company."
Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly
argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of
Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's
voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's
authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and
Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have
determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by
accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated
calendrical date range is AD 1434 (I1(J 11 years: the 95% confidence
level age range is AD 1411-1468.

http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm
(B (J
(B (J
(B
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: Mark.Brown@dpiwe.tas.gov.au To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Eskimo Map Making X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.6a January 17, 2001 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:27:18 +1100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Launceston_DM/LTN/DPIF/AU(Release 5.0.7 |March 21, 2001) at 18/12/2002 16:27:18, Serialize complete at 18/12/2002 16:27:18, Itemize by SMTP Server on SV-HBT-LND-DM07/HBT/DPIF/AU(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 18/12/2002 04:27:18 PM, Serialize by Router on SV-HBT-LND-DM07/HBT/DPIF/AU(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 18/12/2002 04:27:28 PM, Serialize complete at 18/12/2002 04:27:28 PM Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Dear Hardy,

In 1993 John Cusack stared in a film about an Eskimo mapmaker.   The film is called "Maps of the Human Heart"

cheers
Mark
>----------------------------
>Dear All,

>There was a very interesting seminar on the authenticity of the Vinland M=
>ap last week at the Explorers Club in Manhattan.  The presenters were onl=
>y from the pro-authenticity camp, but quite compelling.  Nevertheless, an=
>>interesting evening.  I hadn't considered the possibility of an Eskimo m=
>ap making tradition.  There was one in Oceania for millennia, why not the=
> Arctic.
>

>Hardy F. LeBel

--------------------------------------------------------
Mark Brown
SNR Spatial Information Systems
Land and Water Management Branch
Department of Primary Industry, Water and Environment
P.O. Box 46
Kings Meadows
Australia                7249
Ph: (03)6336 5224        Fax: (03)6336 5365
email:
Mark.Brown@dpiwe.tas.gov.au
--------------------------------------------------------
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jenterli/pop3.concentric.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:39:12 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I was one of the presenters at the Explorers Club seminar that Hardy LeBel mentioned, and Garman Harbottle, co-author of the abstracted paper in this thread, was another. Daan Strebe's post did a good job of explaining Harbottle's point, but I doubt we'll get to know anything more about the map's provenance in the decade preceding its modern appearance until 50 years after Laurence Witten's death (he promised such a disclosure). Meanwhile, Kirsten Seaver's post contains the operative statement:"Once the age of the paper had been reliably established, any subsequent scholarly focus would have to be on the images applied to the paper." I have done exactly that in my analysis of the two cryptograms in the map's two longest inscriptions, published in _Terrae Incognitae_ Vol. 23 (1991) [with printer's errata tucked into the subsequent issue]. I explained that these cryptograms followed medieval stylistic rules that were unknown to modern scholarship until AFTER the Vinland Map emerged, and thus would be anachronistic for any modern forger. Such cryptograms were, for medieval scribes, analogous to computer viruses for modern programmers - a hidden demonstration of their cleverness to those in the know. Seaver's failed attack on my new book* in _Mercator's World_ sarcastically disparaged "his claim that a proper understanding of the Vinalnd Map involves cryptography." But it does, just as much as it involves chemistry. Nobody has found any objective fault with the cryptography argument (except that it requires an effort to understand), and until they do, the map stands authenticated. (And please don't give me that miraculously clever forger stuff - it would take far too much creative effort for today's Latinists to be able to perform such a feat - and with no outcome.) Jim *_Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America_ (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2002). _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:19:40 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one sta

Dee and fellow list members
 
The Oceania maps were are are not just "mental". They were physical constructs designed for long distance voyaging. Comprised of lashed grids, representing currents and winds, the key navigation points were identified by shells. Their difference and value was, they plotted sailing directions rather than geographic location.
 
Polynesians sailed repeatedly from New Zealand to Rapanui (Easter Island) and back...most of the Pacific..using this technique alone. This is how the kumera was moved from South America to New Zealand.
 
For further details see "Song of Waitaha" ISBN 0-9583378-0-2
 
Kia ora and Merry Christmas to all.
 
Michael
 
__________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Dee Longenbaugh
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 10:48
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4

Hello, All,

        David passed on the message that the parchment of the Vinland Map is authentic. That reminded me of the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul where some wonderful old maps were displayed. Asking an expert, I was told that several recent immigrants were quite skilled at buying old parchment, carefully scraping off the information on one side drawing a map on the other. Voila, an old map on authentic parchment.
        As to Hardy's remark, I can assure him that there is a very ancient map-making tradition in all Native groups, including the Eskimo (or Inuit, Inupiat, or Yu'pik as you prefer). Their maps were mental and far more complicated than European ones. I have been working in the field for about four years.
        Greetings of the Season to all, and best wishes for a most satisfying new year,
        Dee

 
There was a very interesting seminar on the authenticity of the Vinland Map last week at the Explorers Club in Manhattan.  The presenters were only from the pro-authenticity camp, but quite compelling.  Nevertheless, an interesting evening.  I hadn't considered the possibility of an Eskimo map making tradition.  There was one in Oceania for millennia, why not the Arctic.
 
Hardy F. LeBel

----- Original Message -----
From: WOODWARD David
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:46 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-45
 
Dear Maphisters:

Many of us expected this, and I'm not sure what this has to do with
the map's authenticity. But I pass it along anyway.

David
________________________________________

Determination of the Radiocarbon Age of Parchment of the Vinland Map

by D J Donahue * J S Olin * G Harbottle

ABSTRACT. The Vinland Map, drawn on a 27.8 ? 41.0 cm parchment
bifolium, is housed in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library
at Yale University. In the northwest Atlantic Ocean, it shows "the
Island of Vinland, discovered by Bjarni and Leif in company."
Skelton, Marston, and Painter (Skelton et al. 1965, 1995) firmly
argued the map's authenticity, associating it with the Council of
Basle (AD 1431-1449), that is, half a century before Columbus's
voyage. Nevertheless, vigorous scholarly questioning of the map's
authenticity has persisted (Washburn 1966; McCrone 1974; Olin and
Towe 1976; Cahill et al. 1987; McCrone 1988; Towe 1990). We have
determined the precise radiocarbon age of the map's parchment by
accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS). The one-sigma calibrated
calendrical date range is AD 1434 ± 11 years: the 95% confidence
level age range is AD 1411-1468.

http://www.radiocarbon.org/Donahue-Vinland.htm
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

--
The Observatory,ABAA
200 North Franklin
Juneau, Alaska 99801
deelong@alaska.com
http://www.observatorybooks.com
Our 25th Year
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:20:41 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] Plans of Paris - exhibition and inventory X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id KAA00864 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Kalifon, David" ] Ms. Hofmann: When and where might I (and others) purchase a copy of of this cartobibliography and catalogue. None of my United States or French booksellers list it. For those of us interested in and collecting early maps of Paris, this seems like a long overdue work. Thank you. David Kalifon, MD, JD Vice-President--Southern California California Map Society Direct Telephone: 310.785.5311 Direct Fax: 310.712.3311 E-mail: drk@jmbm.com & dkalifon@charter.net -----Original Message----- From: catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR [mailto:catherine.hofmann@BNF.FR] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:34 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Plans of Paris - exhibition and inventory Second announcement (with some complements) : Les plans de Paris des origines 1493 à la fin du XVIIIe siècle, études, carto-bibliographie, catalogue par Jean Boutier avec la collaboration de Marine Sibille et de Jean-Yves Sarazin, Paris, BnF, 2002. ISBN : 2-7177-2230-0 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:45:40 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] List-owner's message Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 The following e-mail addresses have been removed from the MapHist list since they are undeliverable and cause error messages. In case you know anyone of these, please inform him or her that (s)he has to re-s*bscribe. ddevers@hermes.geog.umd.edu D.Schloegl@BG.FAK09.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (where are you Daniel?) Peter Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: krogt@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:00:17 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Vinland Map controversy Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from ["Joyce Post" ] (P.S. J.B. Post wrote me privately: By mistake, I just sent a message to MapHist using my wife's identity. ) The Vinland Map controversy seems, like Dracula in the movies, to = never die. Many years ago, shortly after the book was published, I was = at a gathering at the home of Richard Eades Harrison and was badgered by = the author Lester Del Rey for a definitive answer on authenticity. I = tried to explain that instrumentation had to get more refined before = some questions could be answered and even dating the parts wasn't going = to settle the matter completely. Well, we now have better = instrumentation. I have no competence to even have an opinion these = days one way or the other on the map itself and follow the debates with = a detached interest. =20 JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: akermanj@mail.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:07:53 -0600 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jim Akerman Subject: [MapHist] Newberry Library fellowships Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Newberry Library Fellowships in the Humanities, 2003-04

The Newberry Library, an independent research library in Chicago, Illinois, invites applications for its 2003-04 Fellowships in the Humanities. Newberry Library fellowships support research in residence at the Library. All proposed research must be appropriate to the collections of the Newberry Library (information about our holdings can be found on our Web site, www.newberry.org ). Our fellowship program rests on the belief that all projects funded by the Newberry benefit from engagement both with the materials in the Newberry's collections and with the lively community of researchers that gathers around those collections. Long-term residential fellowships are available to postdoctoral scholars (and Ph.D. candidates in the case of the Kade Fellowship) for periods of six to eleven months. Applicants for postdoctoral awards must hold the Ph.D. at the time of application. The stipend for these fellowships is up to $40,000. Short-term residential fellowships are intended for postdoctoral scholars or Ph.D. candidates from outside of the Chicago area who have a specific need for Newberry collections. Scholars whose principal residence or place of employment is within the Chicago area are not eligible. The tenure of short-term fellowships varies from one week to two months. The amount of the award is generally $1200 per month. Applications for long-term fellowships are due January 21, 2003; applications for most short-term fellowships are due February 20, 2003. For more information or to download application materials, visit our Web site at www.newberry.org/nl/research/L3rfellowships.html
If you would like materials sent to you by mail, write to Committee on Awards, 60 West Walton Street, Chicago, IL 60610-3380. If you have questions about the fellowships program, contact research@newberry.org or (312) 255-3666.

X-Authentication-Warning: sun3.lrz-muenchen.de: a1101af owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:38:34 +0100 (MET) From: Daniel Schloegl X-X-Sender: a1101af@sun3.lrz-muenchen.de To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] List-owner's message Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Wolfgang Lierz wrote: > Peter van der Krogt wrote: > > The following e-mail addresses have been removed from the MapHist list > > since they are undeliverable and cause error messages. In case you know > > anyone of these, please inform him or her that (s)he has to re-s*bscribe. > > > > D.Schloegl@BG.FAK09.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (where are you Daniel?) Peter, I am here and connected to the community again! Thank you Peter, Theo and Wolfgang for your efforts. Daniel Schloegl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 06:49:22 +1300 From: Michael Ross Subject: RE: [MapHist] Eskimo Map Making To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
A wonderful film by an New Zealand film-maker!
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Ross
Performance Resources
Voice: +64.21.897.889
Fax:    +64.21.218.2166
performanceresources@clear.net.nz
http://performanceresources.97.ca


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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Mark.Brown@dpiwe.tas.gov.au
Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2002 18:27
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Eskimo Map Making


Dear Hardy,

In 1993 John Cusack stared in a film about an Eskimo mapmaker.   The film is called "Maps of the Human Heart"

cheers
Mark
>----------------------------
>Dear All,

>There was a very interesting seminar on the authenticity of the Vinland M=
>ap last week at the Explorers Club in Manhattan.  The presenters were onl=
>y from the pro-authenticity camp, but quite compelling.  Nevertheless, an=
>>interesting evening.  I hadn't considered the possibility of an Eskimo m=
>ap making tradition.  There was one in Oceania for millennia, why not the=
> Arctic.
>

>Hardy F. LeBel

--------------------------------------------------------
Mark Brown
SNR Spatial Information Systems
Land and Water Management Branch
Department of Primary Industry, Water and Environment
P.O. Box 46
Kings Meadows
Australia                7249
Ph: (03)6336 5224        Fax: (03)6336 5365
email:
Mark.Brown@dpiwe.tas.gov.au
--------------------------------------------------------

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:14:37 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi, I found this in sci.archaeology -- any comments? Http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/vinland/vinland.htm Quote: McNaughton's Disappearing Ink McNaughton, who is described as a physicist and independent scholar of early maps, raises a number of interesting points concerning the VM. Surely the most remarkable, however, is his revelation that the ink originally on the map when it came to light in 1957 has now almost entirely fallen off: Even an inexperienced observer easily notes that something is very wrong with this document [the VM]. The reproduction shown from The Vinland Map and the Tartar Relation is heavily enhanced to show a map that existed only briefly in the mid-1960s. The actual map today has no black ink lines left, as the black pigment has been falling off at a highly abnormal rate since its purchase in 1957 (Moller 1985). This is at variance with all the other maps we have examined in this chapter that are far older and far more detailed. Ink lines may be lost over centuries, but on the Vinland Map all the ink pigment has fallen away in the few decades since it was revealed. (McNaughton 2000, p. 267) End Quote Reference from the end of the article McNaughton, Douglas. "A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the North Atlantic," in Wm. W. Fitzhugh and Elisabeth I. Ward, eds., Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga, pp. 257-269. Smithsonian Institution Press, 2000. -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jenterli/pop3.concentric.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:49:10 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes just what one might expect from a document that was cleaned by bleaching at the hands of an amateur. See the Appendix in my book _Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2002). In the 1950's it was still common practice to spruce up a dirty old manuscript for a better sale price (as was apparently done in patching the wormholes). And if the Vinland Map really was originally a reference map at the front of the Speculum, it surely would have accumulated plenty of dirty finger marks. Jim. At 07:14 PM 12/18/02 +0000, Doug Weller wrote: >Hi, > >I found this in sci.archaeology -- any comments? > >Http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/vinland/vinland.htm >Quote: >McNaughton's Disappearing Ink > >McNaughton, who is described as a physicist and independent scholar of >early maps, raises a number of interesting points concerning the VM. >Surely the most remarkable, however, is his revelation that the ink >originally on the map when it came to light in 1957 has now almost >entirely fallen off: > > >Even an inexperienced observer easily notes that something is very wrong >with this document [the VM]. The reproduction shown from The Vinland Map >and the Tartar Relation is heavily enhanced to show a map that existed >only briefly in the mid-1960s. The actual map today has no black ink >lines left, as the black pigment has been falling off at a highly >abnormal rate since its purchase in 1957 (Moller 1985). This is at >variance with all the other maps we have examined in this chapter that >are far older and far more detailed. Ink lines may be lost over >centuries, but on the Vinland Map all the ink pigment has fallen away in >the few decades since it was revealed. (McNaughton 2000, p. 267) >End Quote > >Reference from the end of the article >McNaughton, Douglas. "A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the >North Atlantic," in Wm. W. Fitzhugh and Elisabeth I. Ward, eds., >Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga, pp. 257-269. Smithsonian Institution >Press, 2000. >-- > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated > Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk > Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:16:08 -0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This seems very odd, considering that many, many old documents, including parchment ones, have been cleaned over the years without the ink falling off. Since the map was considered of prime importance, it also seems peculiar that the owner wouldn't have employed an expert in the field. I also wonder why the Norse would be using codes; what were they protecting? Overall, I can only quote Helen Wallis, who believed the map was a forgery and wrote about it in "The Map Collector"Winter, 1990. Dee >Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes >just what one might expect from a document that was cleaned by >bleaching at the hands of an amateur. See the Appendix in my book >_Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America >(Johns Hopkins University Press, 2002). In the 1950's it was still >common practice to spruce up a dirty old manuscript for a better >sale price (as was apparently done in patching the wormholes). And >if the Vinland Map really was originally a reference map at the >front of the Speculum, it surely would have accumulated plenty of >dirty finger marks. > >Jim. > >At 07:14 PM 12/18/02 +0000, Doug Weller wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I found this in sci.archaeology -- any comments? >> >>Http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/vinland/vinland.htm >>Quote: >>McNaughton's Disappearing Ink >> >>McNaughton, who is described as a physicist and independent scholar of >>early maps, raises a number of interesting points concerning the VM. >>Surely the most remarkable, however, is his revelation that the ink >>originally on the map when it came to light in 1957 has now almost >>entirely fallen off: >> >> >>Even an inexperienced observer easily notes that something is very wrong >>with this document [the VM]. The reproduction shown from The Vinland Map >>and the Tartar Relation is heavily enhanced to show a map that existed >>only briefly in the mid-1960s. The actual map today has no black ink >>lines left, as the black pigment has been falling off at a highly >>abnormal rate since its purchase in 1957 (Moller 1985). This is at >>variance with all the other maps we have examined in this chapter that >>are far older and far more detailed. Ink lines may be lost over >>centuries, but on the Vinland Map all the ink pigment has fallen away in >>the few decades since it was revealed. (McNaughton 2000, p. 267) >>End Quote >> >>Reference from the end of the article >>McNaughton, Douglas. "A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the >>North Atlantic," in Wm. W. Fitzhugh and Elisabeth I. Ward, eds., >>Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga, pp. 257-269. Smithsonian Institution >>Press, 2000. >>-- >> Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated >> Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org >> Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk >> Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details >> >>_______________________________________________________________ >>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >>the views of the author. >>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- The Observatory,ABAA 200 North Franklin Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Our 25th Year _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jenterli/pop3.concentric.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:44:56 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 At 04:16 PM 12/18/02 -0900, Dee Longenbaugh wrote: >This seems very odd, considering that many, many old documents, including >parchment ones, have been cleaned over the years without the ink falling off. It depends on what was used to clean them and how thoroughly the cleaner was removed afterwards. There is no question that this ink is different. And Gar Harbottle's report suggests that the parchment itself had some unusual treatment in the 'fifties. There is indeed some kind of mystery here, and I've tried taking steps to solve it in my Appendix. Hopefully others can add more steps. >Since the map was considered of prime importance, it also seems peculiar >that the owner wouldn't have employed an expert in the field. There is no evidence that it was considered of prime importance by the original owner in the 'fifties. He probably got no more than a couple of hundred dollars for it, considering that Witten only paid some $3,000 for it, we know that there was at least one other middle man, and there well may have been additional finders fees. > I also wonder why the Norse would be using codes; what were they > protecting? The Norse were not necessarily using codes. This map was (putatively) produced by a central European, based on Norse geographical information. If you read the article in Terrae Incognitae you'll see that no information was being protected, the cryptograms were just a performance, a game. >>Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes just >>what one might expect from a document that was cleaned by bleaching at >>the hands of an amateur. See the Appendix in my book _Erikson, Eskimos & >>Columbus: Medieval European Knowledge of America (Johns Hopkins >>University Press, 2002). In the 1950's it was still common practice to >>spruce up a dirty old manuscript for a better sale price (as was >>apparently done in patching the wormholes). And if the Vinland Map >>really was originally a reference map at the front of the Speculum, it >>surely would have accumulated plenty of dirty finger marks. >> >>Jim. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:14:20 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, discovery@listserver.tue.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] Fwd: Ship Stella del Mare 1848 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > >Does anyone know particulars about a ship named "Stella del Mare"sailing >from Valparaiso in february 1848 to Canton? Date of arrival June 20, >1848. Visits were made to Tahiti and Hamoa. > >Sebastiaan S. Hesselink Sent to the list by Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:45:11 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] Fwd: Ship Stella del Mare 1848 Cc: hesselink@forum-hes.nl Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Sjoerd de Meer ] If the nationality of the ship is not known, it is difficult to find the ship in question. A ship Stella del Mare is not mentioned in registers like Lloyds. In Veritas is menioned a Stella del Mare from Genua. In a compilation of shipregisters I found a Stella Maris from Schiedam, shipowner J.H. van Gent (the Netherlands), a brick which is known between 1850 and 1863. It was wrecked in 1863 in China. With kind regards Sjoerd de Meer, curator demeer@maritiemmuseum.nl __________________________________ MARITIEM MUSEUM ROTTERDAM POSTBUS 988 3000 AZ ROTTERDAM TELEFOON 010 4029240 FAX 010 4137342 WWW.MARITIEMMUSEUM.NL -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Peter van der Krogt [mailto:peter@vanderkrogt.net] Verzonden: donderdag 19 december 2002 13:14 Aan: maphist@geog.uu.nl; discovery@listserver.tue.nl Onderwerp: [MapHist] Fwd: Ship Stella del Mare 1848 > >Does anyone know particulars about a ship named "Stella del Mare"sailing >from Valparaiso in february 1848 to Canton? Date of arrival June 20, >1848. Visits were made to Tahiti and Hamoa. > >Sebastiaan S. Hesselink Sent to the list by Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:53:06 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] Fwd: Eridano 1844-45 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id QAA05886 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 > >Does anyone know particulars about a ship named "Eridano" entering the >Pacific south of Cape Horn on Februari 1, 1844, sailing to Valparaiso, >north to Porto Callao (near Lima), to Nouka-Hiva, Tahiti, Honolulu, to >San Francisco (october 1844, then south to Valparaiso, to leave the >Pacific south of Cape Horn in march 1845. >This ship is not mentioned in B.JUDD, Voyages to Hawaii before 1860. >Honolulu. 1974. > >The precise day-to-day way of the "Eridano" is supplied in manuscript on >a Pacific chart in Dumont d'Urville's Atlas hydrographique executé sur >la corvette l'Astrolabe. Paris, 1833. Bound extra in this volume are >also around 50 printed charts from Dumont d'Urville (1842-1848), >Duperrey, Flinders, Du Petit-Thouars, etc. as well as some manuscript >charts. > >Any information is highly appreciated. > >Sebastiaan S. Hesselink >info@forumrarebooks.com > Sent to the list by Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:54:38 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi Jim, Wednesday, December 18, 2002, 9:49:10 PM, you wrote: > Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes just what > one might expect from a document that was cleaned by bleaching at the hands > of an amateur. See the Appendix in my book _Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus: > Medieval European Knowledge of America (Johns Hopkins University Press, > 2002). In the 1950's it was still common practice to spruce up a dirty old > manuscript for a better sale price (as was apparently done in patching the > wormholes). And if the Vinland Map really was originally a reference map > at the front of the Speculum, it surely would have accumulated plenty of > dirty finger marks. What do you know about this? The following is from a post on sci.archaeology form someone for whom I have no respect, but is relevant to this discussion. NEARA of course has a general bias towards frequent pre-Columbian transatlantic contact between all sorts of people, but I wouldn't write them off completely. :-) - Dr. James Guthrie, who spent his lifetime as a research chemist, has followed this subject closely for many years. He has two recent publications on this subject. One is "Analysis of Douglas McNaughton's, A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the North Atlantic", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 1, Summer 2000, page 11. This was followed by "Anatase in the Vinland Map", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter 2000, page 101. - Dr. Guthrie said: "McNaughton's summary of the scientific studies (pp. 269) is surprisingly incomplete. There is no mention of Cahill's findings and little evidence that he has read McCrone's papers. He does not realize that McCrone overestimated the titanium content by a factor of ten thousand or that the traces of anatase have not been proven to be modern titanium white. ---- but Thomas Cahill, whose group has scrutinized a great many medieval manuscripts, was quoted this year as saying 'If it is a forgery, it is probably the world's best forgery'. -- " -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jenterli/pop3.concentric.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:54:25 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear Doug Weller, In answer to your questions, as you might expect, I prefer not to make blanket qualitative statements about one writer or another, but I'm happy to make specific objective statements about data, evidence or observations. I last saw the Vinland Map with my own eyes at the 1996 Yale University Conference upon publication of the new edition of Skelton et. al. At that time I was surprised at how pale its ink had become since I previously saw it in 1971-72 (it was somewhat pale even then). I asked others at Yale about this, and they all agreed that it was a progressive phenomenon, but nobody had any explanation. As for the work of Cahill et. al., I have read it very carefully several times, and find nothing objectively wrong with it. But when comparing his results with McCrone's, it is very important to keep in mind the fundamental difference between Cahill's areal approach and McCrone's particulate approach. Each may be correct in their measurements of what they observed, and their conclusions yet disagree. I would caution you not to conclude that Cahill's low areal percentage of Titanium conflicts with McCrone's high percentage of Titanium in specific selected microscopic particles. You make the statement, " . . . the traces of anatase have not been proven to be modern titanium white." It is true that McCrone had adjusted downward his estimate of average particle size, which may bring into question whether it is modern. However, at least as important as average particle size is the distribution of particle size. Modern manufacturers don't want to waste expensive pigments in particle sizes that do not reflect white light, and they control the distribution tightly. It was McCrone's claim of the narrow distribution that made it seem modern. All best, Jim. At 04:54 PM 12/19/02 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Jim, > >Wednesday, December 18, 2002, 9:49:10 PM, you wrote: > > > Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes just > what > > one might expect from a document that was cleaned by bleaching at the > hands > > of an amateur. See the Appendix in my book _Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus: > > Medieval European Knowledge of America (Johns Hopkins University Press, > > 2002). In the 1950's it was still common practice to spruce up a dirty > old > > manuscript for a better sale price (as was apparently done in patching the > > wormholes). And if the Vinland Map really was originally a reference map > > at the front of the Speculum, it surely would have accumulated plenty of > > dirty finger marks. > > What do you know about this? > The following is from a post on sci.archaeology form someone for whom > I have no respect, but is relevant to this discussion. NEARA of > course has a general bias towards frequent pre-Columbian > transatlantic contact between all sorts of people, but I wouldn't > write them off completely. :-) > - >Dr. James Guthrie, who spent his lifetime as a research chemist, has >followed this subject closely for many years. He has two recent >publications on this subject. One is "Analysis of Douglas McNaughton's, >A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the North Atlantic", NEARA >Journal, Vol. 34, No. 1, Summer 2000, page 11. This was followed by >"Anatase in the Vinland Map", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter >2000, page 101. >- >Dr. Guthrie said: "McNaughton's summary of the scientific studies (pp. >269) is surprisingly incomplete. There is no mention of Cahill's >findings and little evidence that he has read McCrone's papers. He does >not realize that McCrone overestimated the titanium content by a factor >of ten thousand or that the traces of anatase have not been proven to be >modern titanium white. ---- but Thomas Cahill, whose group has >scrutinized a great many medieval manuscripts, was quoted this year as >saying 'If it is a forgery, it is probably the world's best forgery'. -- >" > >-- > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated > Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk > Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:34:40 +0100 From: Göran Bäärnhielm User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Fwd: Eridano 1844-45 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This is interesting! We happen to have three sheets from the same DUmont d'Urville Pacific chart, by Vincendon-Dumoulin 1845, on which are plotted various voyages in the North and East Pacific, with dates given, i.e. day and month but not the year, and the ship's name isn't given either. I have been wondering what the possibilities are to find out something about this, but I'm not very optimistic. Perhaps an exercise from a navigation school? Best regards Göran Bäärnhielm Peter van der Krogt wrote: > >> >> Does anyone know particulars about a ship named "Eridano" entering the >> Pacific south of Cape Horn on Februari 1, 1844, sailing to Valparaiso, >> north to Porto Callao (near Lima), to Nouka-Hiva, Tahiti, Honolulu, to >> San Francisco (october 1844, then south to Valparaiso, to leave the >> Pacific south of Cape Horn in march 1845. >> This ship is not mentioned in B.JUDD, Voyages to Hawaii before 1860. >> Honolulu. 1974. >> >> The precise day-to-day way of the "Eridano" is supplied in manuscript on >> a Pacific chart in Dumont d'Urville's Atlas hydrographique executé sur >> la corvette l'Astrolabe. Paris, 1833. Bound extra in this volume are >> also around 50 printed charts from Dumont d'Urville (1842-1848), >> Duperrey, Flinders, Du Petit-Thouars, etc. as well as some manuscript >> charts. >> >> Any information is highly appreciated. >> >> Sebastiaan S. Hesselink >> info@forumrarebooks.com >> > > Sent to the list by > > > > Peter van der Krogt > List-owner MapHist > > List-info: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > -- ******************************************************************* Göran Bäärnhielm, Map Curator Kungl. biblioteket - The Royal Library - National Library of Sweden P.O. Box 5039, SE-102 41 Stockholm, Sweden Tel.: +46-8-463 4180. Fax: +46-8-463 4328. E-mail: goran.baarnhielm@kb.se ******************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: werner@mail.uba.uva.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:35:21 +0100 To: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Jan Werner Subject: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.21 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id PAA28396 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear colleagues, Following recent thefts in Europe from libraries in the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries etc., I very much regret to inform you about another theft of maps, which now appear to have been cut out of an atlas / pilot guide in the Amsterdam University Library. Yesterday I found one of our Tresoors der Zeevaert, the beautifully handcoloured 1602 edition missing all but one of its engraved charts. The title page is lacking as well. My own administration indicates that this item passed my hands for the last time in December 1997, complete, anyway without any obvious damage like this. In the period between then and now this important, rare and precious piece must have passed the desk of the Rare Books Department and the maps were cut from this Thresoor. The only engraved chart left is the one showing the River of Bordeaux or Garonne. It shows traces of the cutting action, but obviously in a hurry and not as successful as the missing ones. Just the text pages and the woodcuts of this work are remaining. Of course this disaster ruined this unreplaceable atlas almost completely. The news is fresh, more details must be searched for. Since the recent thefts in Europe our security measures have been considerably extended. Unless these have not been strict enough, this unscrupulous action must have happened sometime between December 1997 and May 2001, but at this moment I cannot be sure about that. It is ironical that also yesterday our internal library quarterly came out, including a contribution of mine in which I stressed another time (referring to the Helsinki meeting of the Liber Groupe des Cartothécaires last September) the need of enough, well trained, experienced and motivated staff, next to the mechanical and organizational means of safeguarding our cultural paper heritage. Comments, suggestions and other information are highly appreciated, on-list or off-list. Nevertheless, the best seasons greetings to you all! Jan Werner -------------------------------------------------------- drs. Jan W.H. Werner Conservator Kaarten & Atlassen, Kaartenzaal Curator Maps & Atlases, Map Room Universiteitsbibliotheek Amsterdam Singel 425 NL-1012 WP AMSTERDAM P.O. Box 19185 NL-1000 GD AMSTERDAM t +31 20 5252354 f +31 20 5252311 mailto:werner@uba.uva.nl http://www.uba.uva.nl/nl/collecties/kaarten/ http://www.uba.uva.nl/en/collections/maps/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.158.187.116] From: "Hardy LeBel" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:22:10 -0500 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 16:22:27.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCCF6280:01C2A843] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Jim, et al.,
 
I've often wondered, but never had a serious discussion with anyone concerning the possible effect of the plague on the distribution and preservation of ancient maps.  Maybe its because there can be no answer.  Anybody have any thoughts?
 
Hardy LeBel
 
----- Original Message -----
From: James Enterline
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:16 AM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific
 
Dear Doug Weller,
In answer to your questions, as you might expect, I prefer not to make
blanket qualitative statements about one writer or another, but I'm happy
to make specific objective statements about data, evidence or
observations.  I last saw the Vinland Map with my own eyes at the 1996 Yale
University Conference upon publication of the new edition of Skelton et.
al.  At that time I was surprised at how pale its ink had become since I
previously saw it in 1971-72 (it was somewhat pale even then).  I asked
others at Yale about this, and they all agreed that it was a progressive
phenomenon, but nobody had any explanation.

As for the work of Cahill et. al., I have read it very carefully several
times, and find nothing objectively wrong with it.  But when comparing his
results with McCrone's, it is very important to keep in mind the
fundamental difference between Cahill's areal approach and McCrone's
particulate approach.  Each may be correct in their measurements of what
they observed, and their conclusions yet disagree.  I would caution you not
to conclude that Cahill's low areal percentage of Titanium conflicts with
McCrone's high percentage of Titanium in specific selected microscopic
particles.

You make the statement, " . . . the traces of anatase have not been proven
to be modern titanium white."  It is true that McCrone had adjusted
downward his estimate of average particle size, which may bring into
question whether it is modern.  However, at least as important as average
particle size is the distribution of particle size.  Modern manufacturers
don't want to waste expensive pigments in particle sizes that do not
reflect white light,  and they control the distribution tightly.  It was
McCrone's claim of the narrow distribution that made it seem modern.

All best,   Jim.

At 04:54 PM 12/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>Wednesday, December 18, 2002, 9:49:10 PM, you wrote:
>
> > Doug Weller's quote of Douglas McNaughton's observation describes just
> what
> > one might expect from a document that was cleaned by bleaching at the
> hands
> > of an amateur.  See the Appendix in my book _Erikson, Eskimos & Columbus:
> > Medieval European Knowledge of America (Johns Hopkins University Press,
> > 2002).  In the 1950's it was still common practice to spruce up a dirty
> old
> > manuscript for a better sale price (as was apparently done in patching the
> > wormholes).  And if the Vinland Map really was originally a reference map
> > at the front of the Speculum, it surely would have accumulated plenty of
> > dirty finger marks.
>
>  What do you know about this?
>  The following is from a post on sci.archaeology form someone for whom
>  I have no respect, but is relevant to this discussion.  NEARA of
>  course has a general bias towards frequent pre-Columbian
>  transatlantic contact between all sorts of people, but I wouldn't
>  write them off completely. :-)
>  -
>Dr. James Guthrie, who spent his lifetime as a research chemist, has
>followed this subject closely for many years.  He has two recent
>publications on this subject. One is "Analysis of Douglas McNaughton's,
>A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the North Atlantic", NEARA
>Journal, Vol. 34, No. 1, Summer 2000, page 11.  This was followed by
>"Anatase in the Vinland Map", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter
>2000, page 101.
>-
>Dr. Guthrie said: "McNaughton's summary of the scientific studies (pp.
>269) is surprisingly incomplete.  There is no mention of Cahill's
>findings and little evidence that he has read McCrone's papers.  He does
>not realize that McCrone overestimated the titanium content by a factor
>of ten thousand or that the traces of anatase have not been proven to be
>modern titanium white. ----  but Thomas Cahill, whose group has
>scrutinized a great many medieval manuscripts, was quoted this year as
>saying 'If it is a forgery, it is probably the world's best forgery'. --
>"
>
>--
>  Doug Weller  Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
>  Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org
>  Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
>  Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
>hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
>The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
>the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
>Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
>the views of the author.
>List Information: http://www.maphist.nl

_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.158.187.116] From: "Hardy LeBel" To: "Map History Univ of Utrich" Subject: [MapHist] Pacific Navigators Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:30:05 -0500 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 16:30:21.0250 (UTC) FILETIME=[17097220:01C2A845] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Decades ago I flew transports in the Pacific.  During my free time I became fascinated with the Oceanic Navigators of Oceania, their stick charts and oral tradition.   Anybody else out there interested?
 
Hardy F. LeBel

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.158.187.116] From: "Hardy LeBel" To: "Map History Univ of Utrich" Subject: [MapHist] Plague and Ancient Maps Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:32:48 -0500 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 16:33:03.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[77854E30:01C2A845] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714
Has anyone thought about the impact of the Bubonic Plague may have had on the preservation and dissemination of ancient maps?
 
Hardy F. LeBel

X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:39:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Vinland Map Parchment Age Range (one standard deviation) is 1433-4..and the Pacific X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 0100,0100,0100Dear all: I have been following the discussion on the Vinland map, and I have a few questions. (1) If the supposed forger used commercially produced ink, has anyone compared the ink on the map to samples of the commercial inks produced during the time period when the forgery is supposed to have been made? In other words, are there components other than the Anatase TiO2 that should not be there, or that should be there but are not? (2) If the forger mixed his own ink, was refined Anatase TiO2 (Titainium dioxide) readily available to the public? (3) We can properly presume, I think, that iron oxide (a principal component of Medieval ink) would have been collected from a surface source. However, iron oxide is regularly found in surface deposits together with other substances, one of which is Anatase. Iron oxide and Anatase together form Ilmenite FeTiO3. Ilminite is indistinguishable to the naked eye from Iron oxide. The question therefore rises, who is to say that a medieval ink maker would even have been aware that his Iron oxide might also have contained Anatase? Furthermore, the iron component of Ilminite can be reduced, leaving only Anatase, depending on how the Ilminite is processed (by hand or in a factory) and on how it weathers over time. Has anyone put this into the question mix? (4) with respect to the issue of whether the Anatase in the Vinland map’s ink is commercially refined or not, it is my understanding that compounds prepared by hand by Asian Apothecaries have been tested and were found to be refined to modern industrial standards. So, is it not then possible that the ink prepared in the 1540s by hand in small batches could also be refined to a modern industrial standard? I do not know the answers to these questions, but they do seem to be necessary for completing the logic of the arguments both for and against the authenticity of the Vinland map’s ink. George George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:33:06 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: [MapHist] Anatase and the Vinland Map Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Dear all: Doug Weller will find much useful information concerning the Vinland Map ink if he reads the article recently published by the two London-based scientists Katherine L. Brown and Robin J.H. Clark. It is called "Analysis of Pigmentary Materials on the Vinland Map and Tartar Relation by Raman Microprobe Spectroscopy" and appeared in ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY 74(2002), pp. 3658-3661. This study -- done with the full knowledge of the Beinecke Libreary at Yale -- confirms McCrone's conclusion that the anatase occurs only in the matrix of the yellow line which underlies the crumbling black pigment line on the map. Anatase occurs nowhere else on the map, and it occurs not at all in the Tartar Relation. Furthermore, the form of anatase involved is the product of modern modification methods applied to the anatase crystals in order to give them a smooth shape for the pigment industry. Brown and Clark refer to the studies done by both McCrone and Thomas Cahill and his team, treating these colleagues with the respect due to high-level experts who performed their own analyses in good faith and without bias. Kirsten A. Seaver -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl, owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:26:47 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 12/20/2002 02:27:26 PM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id UAA12192 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Gee, is anybody we know out of jail now? Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson Jan Werner cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft owner-maphist@geo g.uu.nl 12/20/2002 09:35 AM Please respond to maphist Dear colleagues, Following recent thefts in Europe from libraries in the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries etc., I very much regret to inform you about another theft of maps, which now appear to have been cut out of an atlas / pilot guide in the Amsterdam University Library. Yesterday I found one of our Tresoors der Zeevaert, the beautifully handcoloured 1602 edition missing all but one of its engraved charts. The title page is lacking as well. My own administration indicates that this item passed my hands for the last time in December 1997, complete, anyway without any obvious damage like this. In the period between then and now this important, rare and precious piece must have passed the desk of the Rare Books Department and the maps were cut from this Thresoor. The only engraved chart left is the one showing the River of Bordeaux or Garonne. It shows traces of the cutting action, but obviously in a hurry and not as successful as the missing ones. Just the text pages and the woodcuts of this work are remaining. Of course this disaster ruined this unreplaceable atlas almost completely. The news is fresh, more details must be searched for. Since the recent thefts in Europe our security measures have been considerably extended. Unless these have not been strict enough, this unscrupulous action must have happened sometime between December 1997 and May 2001, but at this moment I cannot be sure about that. It is ironical that also yesterday our internal library quarterly came out, including a contribution of mine in which I stressed another time (referring to the Helsinki meeting of the Liber Groupe des Cartothécaires last September) the need of enough, well trained, experienced and motivated staff, next to the mechanical and organizational means of safeguarding our cultural paper heritage. Comments, suggestions and other information are highly appreciated, on-list or off-list. Nevertheless, the best seasons greetings to you all! Jan Werner -------------------------------------------------------- drs. Jan W.H. Werner Conservator Kaarten & Atlassen, Kaartenzaal Curator Maps & Atlases, Map Room Universiteitsbibliotheek Amsterdam Singel 425 NL-1012 WP AMSTERDAM P.O. Box 19185 NL-1000 GD AMSTERDAM t +31 20 5252354 f +31 20 5252311 mailto:werner@uba.uva.nl http://www.uba.uva.nl/nl/collecties/kaarten/ http://www.uba.uva.nl/en/collections/maps/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Subject: Re: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: libergdc-dg@bravo.nls.uk, maphist@geog.uu.nl, owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:26:47 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 12/20/2002 02:27:26 PM X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pop.geog.uu.nl id UAA12193 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Gee, is anybody we know out of jail now? Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson Jan Werner cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft owner-maphist@geo g.uu.nl 12/20/2002 09:35 AM Please respond to maphist Dear colleagues, Following recent thefts in Europe from libraries in the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries etc., I very much regret to inform you about another theft of maps, which now appear to have been cut out of an atlas / pilot guide in the Amsterdam University Library. Yesterday I found one of our Tresoors der Zeevaert, the beautifully handcoloured 1602 edition missing all but one of its engraved charts. The title page is lacking as well. My own administration indicates that this item passed my hands for the last time in December 1997, complete, anyway without any obvious damage like this. In the period between then and now this important, rare and precious piece must have passed the desk of the Rare Books Department and the maps were cut from this Thresoor. The only engraved chart left is the one showing the River of Bordeaux or Garonne. It shows traces of the cutting action, but obviously in a hurry and not as successful as the missing ones. Just the text pages and the woodcuts of this work are remaining. Of course this disaster ruined this unreplaceable atlas almost completely. The news is fresh, more details must be searched for. Since the recent thefts in Europe our security measures have been considerably extended. Unless these have not been strict enough, this unscrupulous action must have happened sometime between December 1997 and May 2001, but at this moment I cannot be sure about that. It is ironical that also yesterday our internal library quarterly came out, including a contribution of mine in which I stressed another time (referring to the Helsinki meeting of the Liber Groupe des Cartothécaires last September) the need of enough, well trained, experienced and motivated staff, next to the mechanical and organizational means of safeguarding our cultural paper heritage. Comments, suggestions and other information are highly appreciated, on-list or off-list. Nevertheless, the best seasons greetings to you all! Jan Werner -------------------------------------------------------- drs. Jan W.H. Werner Conservator Kaarten & Atlassen, Kaartenzaal Curator Maps & Atlases, Map Room Universiteitsbibliotheek Amsterdam Singel 425 NL-1012 WP AMSTERDAM P.O. Box 19185 NL-1000 GD AMSTERDAM t +31 20 5252354 f +31 20 5252311 mailto:werner@uba.uva.nl http://www.uba.uva.nl/nl/collecties/kaarten/ http://www.uba.uva.nl/en/collections/maps/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: jenterli/pop3.concentric.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:55:03 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anatase and the Vinland Map Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 I want to remind everyone again, as I did in my post to Kirsten Seaver on July 31st, that the Brown & Clark paper is not yet fully vetted, and should not be a basis for sweeping conclusions. Seaver now wrote, on Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:33:06 -0800 >This study -- done with the full knowledge of the Beinecke Libreary at >Yale -- confirms McCrone's conclusion that the anatase occurs only in the >matrix of the yellow line which underlies the crumbling black pigment line >on the map. Anatase occurs nowhere else on the map ... This statement jumps beyond the paper, which says, "Anatase was identified in the yellow lines and, in some cases, in the vicinity of the black ink, presumably from the underlying yellow line." That word "presumably" is hardly very strong independent confirmation. And note the phrase "in some cases." Meanwhile, note that Cahill found crystal particles obviously associated with black ink. Next Seaver says, "Anatase occurs nowhere else on the map." However, the paper's words are ..."It was not found elsewhere on the surface ...". In fact, the total study consisted of some nine squares of a couple of millimeters per side - a far cry from ruling out anatase anywhere else on the map. As I pointed out on July 31st, Cahill did find traces of titanium on most of their un-inked parchment area. Seaver concludes with this statement, >Brown and Clark refer to the studies done by both McCrone and Thomas >Cahill and his team, treating these colleagues with the respect due to >high-level experts who performed their own analyses in good faith and >without bias. Their total attempt to deal with the conflict between their results an Cahill's is this statement: "However, the interpretation given to the PIXE results [Cahill] has been robustly challenged by McCrone." Please don't try to promote this paper as a serious or in any way definitive study of the Vinland Map question. Jim _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "Al Magary" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Another dramatic map theft Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:18:32 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 It is really heartbreaking to read a report like this, and I suppose it is more common than ordinary people suspect. Here's a question from a bystander who really knows nothing about the technology concerned: Isn't it possible to develop some kind of invisible-ink encoding and worldwide registration system to guard, among other things, the plates in rare books? My family just adopted a cat and learned that a tiny electronic chip with permanent registration number had been implanted in his shoulder. This now seems to be regular practice in SPCAs and similar in the US. We were given a certificate to mail with some minor fee, like US$6, to the registry with our name and address. Surely there could be a similar technology and system for the relatively permanent owners of various works like libraries and museums to guard various art works. While this would not keep something from being stolen, it would deter thefts for resale and would help in recovery if the item were detected by authorities. Al Magary _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:28:40 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] Re: Another dramatic map theft Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [sv@kb.dk] Dear Jan This is indeed very sad news, thefts like these almost feel like a personal assault. I've passed on the sad news to my director and our head of security. You may not be aware of this, but LIBER has launched a security network, especially aimed at dealing with library thefts, which you can read about on the following web page: http://www.kb.dk/liber/news/librarysecurity.htm On this page you will also find an application form for joining the network, which I sincerely hope your library will. With best wishes and seasonal greetings, Susan ************************************************************************* LIBER Secretariat. Susan Vejlsgaard. The Royal Library. P.O. Box 2149. 1016 Copenhagen K Phone:+45 33 93 62 22. Fax: 33 91 95 96. E-mail: sv@kb.dk. URL: www.kb.dk/liber/ ************************************************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:21:12 +0000 From: Doug Weller X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Anatase and the Vinland Map Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Hi, Thanks Karen and James in particular for all your help. I'm being told there is a new Cahill study. It is evidently referenced in these articles (the following is not by me): "Dr. James Guthrie, who spent his lifetime as a research chemist, has followed this subject closely for many years. He has two recent publications on this subject. One is "Analysis of Douglas McNaughton's, A World in Transition: Early Cartography of the North Atlantic", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 1, Summer 2000, page 11. This was followed by "Anatase in the Vinland Map", NEARA Journal, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter 2000, page 101." And the claim is " Cahill published in August 2002 that his group had checked the variations in register between the yellow and black portions of the lines throughout the 30 meters of length and found those variations to be too small for freehand double inking. He says that this conclusion was confirmed by a forgery expert from the Secret Service." Guthrie has an axe to grind, IMHO. Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: svpal.svpal.org: chetv owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: Chet Van Duzer To: Maphist Subject: [MapHist] Medieval Conceptions of the Far North X-Trollfilter: Yes Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 This French thesis sounds very interesting; is anyone familiar with it? PRIVAT (Jacques) L'ARCTIQUE SCANDINAVE MEDIEVAL (GROENLAND, CANADA ORIENTAL ET ALENTOURS) : TERRE ISOLEE OU POLE D'ATTRACTION ?. Rfrence : 96PA040097 - Universit de soutenance : Paris 4 2020 pages - ISBN : 2-284-00446-6 Best wishes, Chet Van Duzer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: vanderkr@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:51:37 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl (by way of Peter van der Krogt ) Subject: [MapHist] [Fwd: RM: Map exhibit] Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Non-member submission from [Duane Marble ] -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RM: Map exhibit Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:59:58 -0800 From: David Compas To: roadmaps-l@roadmaps.org Map Collectors, FYI While traveling in Louisiana last week I saw an article in the local paper about the upcoming Louisiana Purchase 200th anniversary. During this celebration there is scheduled in New Orleans an exhibit "Charting Louisiana: Five Hundred Years of Maps" - 1 June to 31 December 2003. Some of you may like to see this. Dave Compas RMCA #173 -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Professor Emeritus of Geography Telephone: 614-292-4419 Center for Mapping Fax: 614-292-8062 The Ohio State University 1216 Kinnear Road Email: marble.1@osu.edu Columbus, Ohio 43212 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "George S. Carhart" Organization: University of Southern Maine To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:40:41 -0500 Subject: [MapHist] 1755 Anti-Gallican map by Herbert and Sayer X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 0100,0100,0100I am attempting to identify any copies of William Herbert’s and Robert Sayer’s Anti-Gallican map, 1755, that also have the original slip-case. can anyone help? George George S. Carhart Cartographic Associate Osher Map Library Smith Center for Cartographic Education University of Southern Maine P.O. Box 9301 Portland, Maine 04104-9301 USA (207) 780-4910 gcarhart@usm.maine.edu _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: MKBabinski@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:27:11 EST Subject: Re: [MapHist] 1755 Anti-Gallican map by Herbert and Sayer To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10516 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 In a message dated 12/30/2002 4:57:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, gcarhart@usm.maine.edu writes:


I am attempting to identify any copies of William Herbert’s and
Robert Sayer’s Anti-Gallican map, 1755, that also have the original
slip-case. can anyone help?


Maybe you can use this:

Sotheby's, New York, Auction No. NY7315, May 21, 1999, Siebert I sale, Lot No. 270.
Estimate: $6,000-8,000
Price realized (with Buyer's Premium): $34,500

DESCRIPTION
WILLIAM HERBERT AND ROBERT SAYER
A New and Accurate Map of the English Empire in North America: Representing their Rightful Claim as confirm'd by Charters and the formal Surrender of their Indian Friends; likewise the Encroachments of the French, with the Several Forts they have unjustly Erected therein. By a Society of Anti-Gallicans. London: Sold by Robert Sayer, 1755
Engraved full-sheet map, dissected into 20 sections and mounted on linen as issued (totalling 17 1/8 x 32 3/4 in.; 435 x 832 mm; folding to 4 1/8 x 6 5/8 in.; 105 x 168 mm). Fully handcolored, large inset view of the North Atlantic with New and Old World coasts, side-panel plans (printed from separate plates ) of Quebec, Annapolis Harbor, Fort Dauphin, Fort Frederick, Louisburg, and Chebucto Harbor (St. Margaret Bay); trimmed close. Publisher's marbled board slipcase with letterpress title-label with Sayer's imprint: "A Pocket Map of the English and French Dominions in North America, wherein the Lands Claim'd and Encroach'd by the French, and their Forts erected thereon, are particularly laid down. The Whole exhibited at one view in different Colours"; lightly rubbed and soiled.
A REMARKABLE SURVIVAL OF A SCARCE MAP, RETAINING ITS ORIGINAL SLIPCASE PROVIDING AN EVIDENTLY UNRECORDED ALTERNATIVE TITLE. Herbert and Sayer's map was probably the most blatant of the articles of cartographic propaganda issued by either side during the French and Indian Wars. Despite that fact that diplomatic attempts to solve the territorial disputes of the English and French had already devolved into combat, this "anti-Gallican" map blithely notes that "The Purple Line [which essentially follows the course of the Mississippi] represents the Western Boundary of the hereditary & Conquer's Country of our Indian Friends & Allies, which has been ceded and confirm'd to us by several Treaties and Deeds of Sale."
References: Schwartz, The French and Indian War, fig. 43; Streeter sale 2:822; Phillips Maps 575
Acquisition: Henry Stevens, 1950 



X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: "*Lismaps" , "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:22:39 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 [posted to MapHist and lismaps] I have just heard the sad news that Arthur David Baynes Cope died last Friday (27 December), peacefully at his Suffolk home after a long illness. Invariably known as BC, he had been a conservation officer at the British Museum. He worked on a number of early maps and globes, always in close consultation with his British Library colleague and friend, Helen Wallis. He held strong and firm views about the Vinland Map, which he had examined when it was at the British Museum. A number of you will have heard the lively talks he gave on that and other subjects. BC was delightfully idiosyncratic and will be much missed by his many friends and former colleagues. He was a mine of information about everything you could possibly want (or not want) to know, with a delightfully subtle sense of humour. The British Library Map Library still (I think) treasures his model for the storage of rolled maps that looked to have been closely modelled on a Fench Revolutionary tumbril. Tony Campbell t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:27:44 -0800 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Thank you to Tony for announcing this sad news to the list in such a graceful manner. In addition to the qualities mentioned, both the good and the quirky, I want to stress what a loyal, patient friend B-C was to those who were willing to receive what he had to give. He also had a nice sense of humor! To her dying day, Helen Wallis treasured the square globe which B-C had made her. Kirsten A. Seaver > [posted to MapHist and lismaps] > >I have just heard the sad news that Arthur David Baynes Cope died last >Friday (27 December), peacefully at his Suffolk home after a long illness. > >Invariably known as BC, he had been a conservation officer at the British >Museum. He worked on a number of early maps and globes, always in close >consultation with his British Library colleague and friend, Helen Wallis. >He held strong and firm views about the Vinland Map, which he had examined >when it was at the British Museum. A number of you will have heard the >lively talks he gave on that and other subjects. > >BC was delightfully idiosyncratic and will be much missed by his many >friends and former colleagues. He was a mine of information about >everything you could possibly want (or not want) to know, with a >delightfully subtle sense of humour. The British Library Map Library still >(I think) treasures his model for the storage of rolled maps that looked to >have been closely modelled on a Fench Revolutionary tumbril. > >Tony Campbell >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl X-Authentication-Warning: pop.geog.uu.nl: mojo set sender to owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl using -f From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:24:03 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-maphist@geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 Kirsten I had had no idea he was ill - a result, I suppose, of my being rather out of the loop these days - what with rarely darkening the BLML door. To pass on, peacefully, at his Suffolk home would, I imagine, have been exactly as he would have liked it. We shall, truly, never see his like again. I'd forgotten the square globe - I hope his obituarists will pick it up. Happier thoughts for 2003! Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul S. Seaver" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Death of Arthur David Baynes-Cope > Thank you to Tony for announcing this sad news to the list in such a > graceful manner. In addition to the qualities mentioned, both the > good and the quirky, I want to stress what a loyal, patient friend > B-C was to those who were willing to receive what he had to give. He > also had a nice sense of humor! To her dying day, Helen Wallis > treasured the square globe which B-C had made her. > > Kirsten A. Seaver > > > [posted to MapHist and lismaps] > > > >I have just heard the sad news that Arthur David Baynes Cope died last > >Friday (27 December), peacefully at his Suffolk home after a long illness. > > > >Invariably known as BC, he had been a conservation officer at the British > >Museum. He worked on a number of early maps and globes, always in close > >consultation with his British Library colleague and friend, Helen Wallis. > >He held strong and firm views about the Vinland Map, which he had examined > >when it was at the British Museum. A number of you will have heard the > >lively talks he gave on that and other subjects. > > > >BC was delightfully idiosyncratic and will be much missed by his many > >friends and former colleagues. He was a mine of information about > >everything you could possibly want (or not want) to know, with a > >delightfully subtle sense of humour. The British Library Map Library still > >(I think) treasures his model for the storage of rolled maps that looked to > >have been closely modelled on a Fench Revolutionary tumbril. > > > >Tony Campbell > >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > >the views of the author. > >List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > > -- > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.nl > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl