X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:25:02 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] Fwd: fantasy map X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 I forward Kit's message to the list. The map in question is on http://home.planet.nl/~rkrogt/maps/MB-Aclass.jpg (please note, it is almost 0,5 Mb, take the time in case you have a slow connection). Peter >From: KitTheMap@aol.com >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:28:05 EDT >Subject: fantasy map > >Hi Peter > >Here is a fantasy map of Europe(?) being used by Chrysler-Daimler in their >latest adverts for the A-class. If you think it is entertaining enough you >might want to put it on the homepage and then inform members where to find it. > >Kit > >This mail was sent to you by: >Kit Batten Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Map in newspaper Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:46:34 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0
   In today's Philadelphia inquirer, on the first page of section "C," is a map called "We the Reorganized People" drawn by Robert West to demonstrate a proposed - possibly whimsical - reorganization of the various political units of the United States.  The accompanying text is by Paul Nussbaum & Mari Schafer.  The proposed reorganization is similar in spirit to what was proposed by Joel Garreau in The Nine Nations of North America (Houghton, 1981) and by others at various times.
 
   One is supposed to be able to access the newspaper online at http://www.philly.com, but I have been unsuccessful in getting the image.  Possibly, because of the holiday here, it may take a few days to get up.  And the site isn't one of the most user friendly ones around. 
 
 
J. B. Post
244 Vincent Rd.
Paoli, PA   19301
610/725-0229
jbpost@netreach.net
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Map in newspaper Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:08:42 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0

Is Robert West in any way related to Gerry Mander?!

 

Francis Herbert

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections']

 

-----Original Message-----
From: J.B. Post [mailto:jbpost@netreach.net]
Sent: 04 July 2004 15:47
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Map in newspaper

 

   In today's Philadelphia inquirer, on the first page of section "C," is a map called "We the Reorganized People" drawn by Robert West to demonstrate a proposed - possibly whimsical - reorganization of the various political units of the United States.  The accompanying text is by Paul Nussbaum & Mari Schafer.  The proposed reorganization is similar in spirit to what was proposed by Joel Garreau in The Nine Nations of North America (Houghton, 1981) and by others at various times.

 

   One is supposed to be able to access the newspaper online at http://www.philly.com, but I have been unsuccessful in getting the image.  Possibly, because of the holiday here, it may take a few days to get up.  And the site isn't one of the most user friendly ones around. 

 

 

J. B. Post

244 Vincent Rd.

Paoli, PA   19301

610/725-0229

 

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Map of library cats Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:23:14 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 The URL for this site is - if I keyboard it correctly - http://www.ironfrog.com/catsmap.html . By mistake, was included in a forwarding of the image and it was bounced. I apologize. J _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:21:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Lester Subject: [MapHist] T.Cheevers vs. John Cheevers on Hutchins map of western Virginia, etc To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 Hello MapHisters, Every internet link I checked lists "T. Cheevers" as the engraver of Thomas Hutchins's 1778 map, "A New Map of the Western Parts of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and North Carolina..." Yet Tooley's Dictionary of Mapmakers has a listing only for John Cheevers, and credits John Cheevers for the above map. Does any one know if what looks like a "T" in the bottom right margin is really a variant script form of the letter "J" or if his full name was T. John Cheevers or John T. Cheevers? Sorry for sweating such tiny details. Thanks, Jay L. p.s. The only place I could see the engraver's signature in sufficient resolution was David Rumsey's collection; search under Publication Author: Hutchins. Of course, those of you fortunate enough to own a copy need look no further than your own collection. ===== Jay Lester Chapel Hill, NC mapsguy@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:06:06 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] T.Cheevers vs. John Cheevers on Hutchins map of western Virginia, etc X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 David Rumsey has two (at least) maps, one of which he credits to J. Cheevers (5572) and another to T. Cheevers (6355). And then there's this: http://www.devon.gov.uk/library/locstudy/bookhist/m.html Moses, George. Absented himself from his master's service since the 1st of November last, George Moses, apprentice to Mr. John Cheevers, of Castle-street, Long-Acre, Engraver (LDA 20 Dec 1780) and under .../c.html, Cheevers, John. [same text as above] Leave off the "m.html" to read an explanation of these listings. In any case, if Cheevers of Castle Street is your man, apparently he's John. John Woram --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:06:18 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] T.Cheevers vs. John Cheevers on Hutchins map of western Virginia, etc X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=5.0 This map is pictured in some detail in  Stephenson & McKee's Virginia in Maps, Library of Virginia, 2000, pp. 97-101. The Cheevers signature is easily legible in the segment produced on the latter page, but it is almost impossible (magnifying glass in hand) to decipher that first initial clearly. This was from Chapter 2, which was written by Don Cresswell, so if Chris Lane is seeing this, perhaps he can ask his partner if he can shed some light.

        Joel Kovarsky

At 03:21 PM 7/5/2004, you wrote:
Hello MapHisters,

Every internet link I checked lists "T. Cheevers" as the engraver of
Thomas Hutchins's 1778 map, "A New Map of the Western Parts of
Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and North Carolina..." Yet Tooley's
Dictionary of Mapmakers has a listing only for John Cheevers, and
credits John Cheevers for the above map.

Does any one know if what looks like a "T" in the bottom right margin
is really a variant script form of the letter "J" or if his full name
was T. John Cheevers or John T. Cheevers?

Sorry for sweating such tiny details.

Thanks,
Jay L.
p.s. The only place I could see the engraver's signature in sufficient
resolution was David Rumsey's collection; search under Publication
Author: Hutchins. Of course, those of you fortunate enough to own a
copy need look no further than your own collection.

=====
Jay Lester
Chapel Hill, NC
mapsguy@yahoo.com


                
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List Information: http://www.maphist.info
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] T & J Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:31:10 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 While I can't shed light on confusions between "T" and "J" on older maps, there is a modern confusion to show such things can happen. The map of Arkham on p.21 of THE DICTIONARY OF IMAGINARY PLACES (N.Y.: Macmillan, 1980) the upper right quadrant of the map has a location clearly marked as "Toe Sargent Bus Stop." This map by James Cook seems to be clearly derived from an earlier map of this imaginary place by Gahan Wilson. The Wilson map is reproduced in AN ATLAS OF FANTASY (Baltimore: Mirage, 1973; N.Y. & London: Ballantine & Souvenir, 1979) on pp.242-243 of the Mirage edition and on p.195 in the Ballantine/Souvenir edition. If one knows the story from which this information is derived, one knows the name is "Joe Sargent," but Wilson's lettering is "fancy" enough to confuse someone not familiar with the tales. If it can happen in modern times, it could have happened before. J _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:44:13 +0200 From: "Dr.Zsolt Török" Organization: Dept. of Cartography and Geoinformatics, ELTE X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Cartographica Hungarica 8 X-ELTE-SpamVersion: MailScanner 4.31.6-itk1 (ELTE 1.2) SpamAssassin 2.63 ClamAV 0.73 X-ELTE-VirusStatus: clean X-ELTE-SpamCheck: no X-ELTE-SpamCheck-Details: score=-4.9, required 5.9, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -4.90 X-ELTE-SpamLevel: X-ELTE-SpamScore: -4 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Dear Map Historian! The new issue of Cartographica Hungarica, the Journal for Map History in Hungary has been published! After four years No. 8 was printed on 124 pages, with papers in Hungarian, German and English. With an emphasis on Hungary related material, the journal is recommended for all readers interested in early maps. CH is one of the only two printed forums for map historians in Europe. For more information on the journal please, visit: http://lazarus.elte.hu/~zoltorok/terktor/carthun/carthun_index.htm For a copy of CH No. 8 (Price: Euro 15 (plus postage) please, contact me by e-mail. Regards, Zsolt Torok _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Cartographica Hungarica 8 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:47:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by randy.eatserver.nl id i66Blqb05398 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 Dear Zsolt, You write: "CH is one of the only two printed forums for map historians in Europe." Where do 'Caert-Thresoor', 'Cartographica Helvetica', 'Imago Mundi', and 'Map Forum' (etc.) fall? Even when in Dutch, French, German, or English all these journals carry summaries of the main articles in other languages too. For these, and for other European journals that deal with the history of cartography (in whole or in part) see http://www.maphistory.info/journals.html - a page of The History of cartography gateway site. Francis f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] -----Original Message----- From: Dr.Zsolt Török [mailto:zoltorok@ludens.elte.hu] Sent: 06 July 2004 11:44 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Cartographica Hungarica 8 Dear Map Historian! The new issue of Cartographica Hungarica, the Journal for Map History in Hungary has been published! After four years No. 8 was printed on 124 pages, with papers in Hungarian, German and English. With an emphasis on Hungary related material, the journal is recommended for all readers interested in early maps. CH is one of the only two printed forums for map historians in Europe. For more information on the journal please, visit: http://lazarus.elte.hu/~zoltorok/terktor/carthun/carthun_index.htm For a copy of CH No. 8 (Price: Euro 15 (plus postage) please, contact me by e-mail. Regards, Zsolt Torok _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:30:04 +0200 From: "Dr.Zsolt Török" Organization: Dept. of Cartography and Geoinformatics, ELTE X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cartographica Hungarica 8 X-ELTE-SpamVersion: MailScanner 4.31.6-itk1 (ELTE 1.2) SpamAssassin 2.63 ClamAV 0.73 X-ELTE-VirusStatus: clean X-ELTE-SpamCheck: no X-ELTE-SpamCheck-Details: score=-4.9, required 5.9, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00 -4.90 X-ELTE-SpamLevel: X-ELTE-SpamScore: -4 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 I must correct the number of map history journals... Apparently, we have more than two of them in Europe! Cartographica Hungarica remains the only journal for the history of cartography- (published) in Hungary. Zsolt ::::::::: F.Herbert@RGS.org wrote: > > Dear Zsolt, > > You write: "CH is one of the only two printed forums for map historians in > Europe." > > Where do 'Caert-Thresoor', 'Cartographica Helvetica', 'Imago Mundi', and > 'Map Forum' (etc.) fall? Even when in Dutch, French, German, or English all > these journals carry summaries of the main articles in other languages too. > For these, and for other European journals that deal with the history of > cartography (in whole or in part) see > http://www.maphistory.info/journals.html - a page of The History of > cartography gateway site. > > Francis > f.herbert@rgs.org > http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr.Zsolt Török [mailto:zoltorok@ludens.elte.hu] > Sent: 06 July 2004 11:44 > To: maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Cartographica Hungarica 8 > > Dear Map Historian! > > The new issue of Cartographica Hungarica, the Journal for Map History in > Hungary has been published! > > After four years No. 8 was printed on 124 pages, with papers in > Hungarian, German and English. With an emphasis on Hungary related > material, the journal is recommended for all readers interested in early > maps. > > CH is one of the only two printed forums for map historians in Europe. > For more information on the journal please, visit: > > http://lazarus.elte.hu/~zoltorok/terktor/carthun/carthun_index.htm > > For a copy of CH No. 8 (Price: Euro 15 (plus postage) please, contact me > by e-mail. > > Regards, > > Zsolt Torok > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: philaprint@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:40:23 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: The Philadelphia Print Shop Subject: [MapHist] Engraver of Hutchins map X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 As it happens, we have a copy for sale of Hutchins map of western VA, etc., so I could take a very close look at the initial. I would say that it does look like a "J," though it certainly can be a "T." We listed the engraver as "T Cheevers," because of other references we found, which were not clearly contradicted by the signature. However, with the Tooley listing for John Cheevers and the appearance of the signature, I would now lean towards the name being "J Cheevers," with the "T Cheevers" being a mistake. In any case, I am going to scan in the signature by itself and if it comes out ok post it to the web. I'll send another message once this is done. Chris Lane The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] philaprint@philaprintshop.com www.philaprintshop.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: philaprint@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:31:23 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: The Philadelphia Print Shop Subject: [MapHist] Signature of J/T Cheevers X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] philaprint@philaprintshop.com www.philaprintshop.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:40:48 -0400 From: Strebe@aol.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 192.150.22.150 X-AOL-Language: english X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 It's clearly a "J" to me... Regards, daan Strebe In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:31:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, The Philadelphia Print Shop writes: >I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... > > >www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg > > >The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. >8441 Germantown Avenue >Philadelphia, PA 19118 >(215) 242-4750 >(215) 242-6977 [fax] >philaprint@philaprintshop.com > >www.philaprintshop.com > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Harry S. Newman" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Signature of J/T Cheevers Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:48:39 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=5.0 I'd vote for a "T." I have seen that style of lettering used many times in the past. Harry S. Newman The Old Print Shop, Inc. 150 Lexington Avenue New York NY 10016 Tel: 212-683-3950 Fax: 212-779-8040 Website: -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of The Philadelphia Print Shop Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:31 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Signature of J/T Cheevers I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] philaprint@philaprintshop.com www.philaprintshop.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Charles Burroughs" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Signature of J/T Cheevers Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:07:15 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 That sure looks like a "J." to me. Charles, the reader of old script. -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of The Philadelphia Print Shop Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:31 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Signature of J/T Cheevers I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] philaprint@philaprintshop.com www.philaprintshop.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Cartographic Associates" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:26:36 -0400 Organization: Cartographic Associates X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 According to Tooley's it is John Cheevers. Bill Stanley ********************************************* Cartographic Associates P.O. Box 565, Fulton, MD 20759 www.maps-charts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers > > It's clearly a "J" to me... > > Regards, > daan Strebe > > > In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:31:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, The Philadelphia Print Shop writes: > > >I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... > > > > > >www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg > > > > > >The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. > >8441 Germantown Avenue > >Philadelphia, PA 19118 > >(215) 242-4750 > >(215) 242-6977 [fax] > >philaprint@philaprintshop.com > > > >www.philaprintshop.com > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > >the views of the author. > >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:31:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: email2.voicenet.com: spanky set sender to spanky@voicenet.com using -f From: "Paul W. Schopp" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers X-Mailer: Voicenet Webmail X-IPAddress: 207.103.48.253 X-Sender: spanky@voicenet.com X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.4 required=5.0 Folks: Perhaps the following website will resolve the name problem: http://www.devon.gov.uk/library/locstudy/bookhist/c.html If you look under Cheevers, you will find a John who is an engraver. Cheers, Paul W. Schopp Senior Historian A.D. Marble and Company 347 High Street, Suite 2-C Burlington, New Jersey 08016 On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:26:36 -0400, "Cartographic Associates" wrote : > According to Tooley's it is John Cheevers. > > > Bill Stanley > > > ********************************************* > Cartographic Associates > P.O. Box 565, Fulton, MD 20759 > www.maps-charts.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:40 PM > Subject: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers > > > > > > It's clearly a "J" to me... > > > > Regards, > > daan Strebe > > > > > > In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:31:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, The > Philadelphia Print Shop writes: > > > > >I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... > > > > > > > > >www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg > > > > > > > > >The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. > > >8441 Germantown Avenue > > >Philadelphia, PA 19118 > > >(215) 242-4750 > > >(215) 242-6977 [fax] > > >philaprint@philaprintshop.com > > > > > >www.philaprintshop.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > >the views of the author. > > >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:33:57 -0400 From: "Edward James Redmond" To: Subject: [MapHist] Re: Signature of J/T Cheevers X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Images of four editions of the Hutchins map can be accessed via the Library of Congress "Map Collections 1500-2004" site: 1) Go to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/gmdhome.html 2) Click on "Creator Index" link 3) Select "Hutchins, Thomas" from the alphabetical listing 4) Click "Gallery View" to see thumbnails; click each image to obtain bibliographic data; click thumbnail again to access zoom function and find "Engraved by _ Cheever" in lower right. To further confuse (or perhaps simplify) matters I have looked at some of the other items engraved by Mr. Cheevers as listed in Tooley. One of these items is a 12 sheet topographic map of County Clare, Ireland published by Henry Pelham in 1787. A note on this map says "The topographic part of this map engrav'd by I. Cheevers" This, I believe, argues for J. Ed Redmond Reference Specialist Geography and Map Division Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, SE Washington, DC 20540-4650 (202) 707-8548 ered@loc.gov >>> Strebe@aol.com 7/6/2004 1:40:48 PM >>> It's clearly a "J" to me... Regards, daan Strebe In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:31:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, The Philadelphia Print Shop writes: >I have just put up a scan of the signature, which I hope will help... > > >www.philaprintshop.com/images/sig.jpg > > >The Philadelphia Print Shop, Ltd. >8441 Germantown Avenue >Philadelphia, PA 19118 >(215) 242-4750 >(215) 242-6977 [fax] >philaprint@philaprintshop.com > >www.philaprintshop.com > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "ASHLEY BAYNTON-WILLIAMS" To: "Maphist" Subject: [MapHist] MapForum in print Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:34:16 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0

DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. PLEASE MAKE SURE ANY MESSAGE COMES TO ME AND IS NOT SENT TO THE ENTIRE LIST

 

I am pleased to inform you that MapForum has made the transition to print, with the First Issue now available, and the second on its way.

 

Subscription details, information on the Editorial Boards, and sample pages may be seen on the website www.MapForum.com

 

Information on advertising is also available on request.

 

The Subscribers’ Area is under construction, and will be built up over the next few months.

 

Ashley Baynton-Williams

 

info@mapforum.com
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Map Forum in print form Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:04:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 I think it good news that MAP FORUM will now appear in print. Paper is sturdier than electrons and the technology doesn't change so rapidly that retrieval becomes a problem. Looking at the board members, the term "map mafia" comes to mind. Many years ago, I had buttons made up reading "Secret Master of Mapdom" and gave them out to key map librarians in the US. The term "map mafia" is much better a collective description of the major players and I think the field should adopt it. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Harold Cramer" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] MapForum in print Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:25:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [151.201.30.30] at Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:25:05 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0
Hello:
 
The news that MapForum is now a paper, rather than web, magazine is certainly good news to those involved. However, one can't help but notice that it is now less accessible. And, I doubt any libraries in my area will subscribe because of the limited audience.
 
Yours truly,
Harold Cramer
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Ed Dahl" To: Subject: [MapHist] The term "map mafia" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:53:49 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0
JBP -- Having checked the dictionary to refresh my memory about
the meaning of the word "mafia," I would like to register my vote
against using it for the purposes you propose below.
 
Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau, Québec  J8R 3K5, CANADA
     TEL: (819) 561-4029   FAX: (819) 561-7753
     
edahl@iosphere.net
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.B. Post" <jbpost@netreach.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: [MapHist] Map Forum in print form

   I think it good news that MAP FORUM will now appear in print.  Paper is
sturdier than electrons and the technology doesn't change so rapidly that
retrieval becomes a problem.

   Looking at the board members, the term "map mafia" comes to mind.  Many
years ago, I had buttons made up reading "Secret Master of Mapdom" and gave
them out to key map librarians in the US.  The term "map mafia" is much
better a collective description of the major players and I think the field
should adopt it.

                JBP
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:21:05 +0100 From: ROBERT DAVIES Organization: Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru / National Library of Wales User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: libergdc-dg@nls.uk, MAPS-L@listerv.uga.edu, maphist@geog.uu.nl, lismaps@jiscmail.ac.uk Subject: [MapHist] Map thief appears in court X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Joseph Peter Bellwood appeared before magistrates today to answer charges relating to the theft of maps from the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth. This is after a search lasting more than three years, and a special appeal on Crimewatch on 22 June 2004. -- Robert Davies Pennaeth Isadran Data Llyfryddol Head of Bibliographic Data Section Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru National Library of Wales ABERYSTWYTH CEREDIGION SY23 3BU +44 (0)1970 632809 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:28:58 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] SAVE THE DATE: 4th Annual Rocky Mountain Map Fair X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Non-member submission from ["Sara Phillips" ] Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:09:37 -0600 July 6, 2004 Dear Map Enthusiast, Fourth Annual Rocky Mountain Antique Map Fair -- Join us at Denver Central Library on Saturday, September 18 -- Denver -- On Saturday, September 18, 2004, the Rocky Mountain Map Society will host the Fourth Annual Rocky Mountain Antique Map Fair at the Denver Central Library located at 10 W. 14th Ave. Pkwy. The event takes place from 9 a.m. - 5 p.m., and offers map dealers, buyers and traders an opportunity to hobnob with fellow enthusiasts. A special Preview event will be held on Friday, Sept. 17 at the Central Library and proceeds will benefit the Library. The event begins at 6:30 p.m. and includes a discussion led by Wesley A. Brown, Rocky Mountain Map Society and president, the Denver Public Library Commission. Tickets are $30 per person; cocktails and hors d'oeuvres will be available throughout the evening. The Map Fair is hosted in partnership with the Denver Public Library, home to an outstanding collection of western maps, and the Rocky Mountain Map Society. The Map Fair has an international appeal with a local flavor. We strive for diversity among our dealers and we plan to have a wide variety of cartographic treasures available. Nearly 30 are expected at this fall event. Visit the Society's Web site at www.RMMaps.org for a list of dealers exhibiting in past years, a Preview Party Reservation Form and more information. Autumn in the Rockies is beautiful. Please join us! # # # Contact: Rocky Mountain Map Society E-mail: jhensinger@comcast.net Web site: www.RMMaps.org A supporting Graphic Image is available upon Request. James Speed Hensinger jhensinger@comcast.net Web: http://JHensinger.home.comcast.net/ _ ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail / \ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:30:28 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: Re: [MapHist] MapForum in print X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Not distributed automatically because of an illegal word. P. From: "ahudson" I personally, professionally, cartographically and categorically welcome Mapforum in print. NYPL, will s u b scribe. As a map librarian familiar with the field, I suspect that all the libraries that s u b scribed to Map Collector and Mercator's World will do likewise. And, I suspect, Mapforum will continue to be available online. Of course, perhaps if Ashley wants to not stay awake 24 hours a day, he may just go for the paper version. Paper, of course, old fashioned as it is, right now seems to be the best permanent library held record for publications, long term research use, etc. funny how websites just go poof!! Even as I say that, I admit to planning my next project as an ebook! In the interest of full disclosure, yes, I am on Mapforum's advisory board. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: KitTheMap@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:39:25 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] MapForum in print To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6104 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.4 required=5.0 As a person who has already seen the latest edition I can only say it is so far a worthy successor to the previous publications and anyone who enjoyed either will cetainly want this one.
Keep up the good work Ashley and Miles

Order your copy NOW!!!

(PS I have no financial interest and am not on the sup. board!)

This mail was sent to you by:
Kit Batten
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X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:58:07 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Cruz Cano y Olmedilla's Map of South America X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Non-member submission from ["Kugelmas, Caio" ] - (Caio just s u b scribed, but with a different address. Peter). I am based in Sao Paulo, Brazil and doing some research on Cruz Cano y = Olmedilla's Map of South America. I am having difficulty to find = material related to the map. If any of you can help ... I am looking into the following matters: =20 How many were printed in the 1775-6 editions? =20 Any of these were auctioned or sold recently? Any list of where the known copies are? Any website with the articles that were printed about Cruz Cano's Map? = I have the bibliography, but in Brazil I cannot find the books and = journals, maybe some one has an electronic copy or is posted somewhere. Thanks and if you want, send me a direct message to : caio@kugelmas.com = OR caio.kugelmas@medtronic.com Regards, Caio Ortiz de Kugelmas S=E3o Paulo, Brazil _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Cruz Cano y Olmedilla's Map of South America Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:18:36 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0

Dear Caio Ortiz de Kugelmas,

 

You should commence with the following article:-

 

Cruz Cano's map of South America, Madrid, 1775 : its creation, adversities and rehabilitation / Thomas R. Smith. - In 'Imago Mundi : a review of early cartography', 1966,  22,  49-78 : ill.  This scholarly article includes sections on 'Paper, engraving, and copper plates', 'Engraving, printing and costs', and 'Dating the editions' (includes watermarks).  See current 'Imago Mundi' website  < http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html> for information on availability of electronic versions.

 

The Royal Geographical Society-IBG Map Room has an interim or mixed edition (dissected and mounted on cloth, in slip-case) that was not recorded by Smith; I did mention this fact when introducing the speaker, Ken Mitchell, when he presented a paper at the 38th Annual Meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries, Vancouver BC, 5.-7.11.1998.   This paper was then published in 'Terrae Incognitae : the Journal of the Society for the History of Discoveries' (Arlington TX : c/o Dept of History, Univ. of Texas at Arlington),  1999,  31,  25-41 : ill. - ISSN 0082-2884

 

Yours sincerely

Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; Compiler, since 1976, of the 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections']

 

-----Original Message-----

From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]

Sent: 07 July 2004 16:58

To: maphist@geog.uu.nl

Subject: [MapHist] Cruz Cano y Olmedilla's Map of South America

 

Non-member submission from ["Kugelmas, Caio"

<caio.kugelmas@medtronic.com>]  - (Caio just s u b scribed, but with a

different address. Peter).

 

 

I am based in Sao Paulo, Brazil and doing some research on Cruz Cano y =

Olmedilla's Map of South America.  I am having difficulty to find =

material related to the map.  If any of you can help ...

 

I am looking into the following matters:

  =20

How many were printed in the 1775-6 editions? =20

Any of these were auctioned or sold recently?

Any list of where the known copies are?

Any website with the articles that were printed about Cruz Cano's Map?  =

I have the bibliography, but in Brazil I cannot find the books and =

journals, maybe some one has an electronic copy or is posted somewhere.

 

Thanks and if you want, send me a direct message to :  caio@kugelmas.com =

  OR caio.kugelmas@medtronic.com

 

Regards,

 

Caio Ortiz de Kugelmas

S=E3o Paulo, Brazil

 

_______________________________________________________________

MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography

hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.

The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of

the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of

Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for

the views of the author.

List Information: http://www.maphist.info

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] MapForum in print To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:21:58 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 07/07/2004 12:21:59 PM X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Illegal word? Moi? Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: vanderkr18@mail.vanderkrogt.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:14:31 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [MapHist] Illegal words in messages X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 Yes, toi. To explain: The program checks about the first ten lines of the message. If its finds words which can be used as commands, it bounces the message to me. Alice's illegal word was s u b scribe - (note that I add spaces, otherwise this message will not be distributed!) P. At 18:21 7-7-2004, you wrote: >Illegal word? > >Moi? Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:15:57 -0800 From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [MapHist] MapForum in print X-Sender: deelong@mail.gci.net To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 All of us who missed The Map Collector and mourned the demise of Mercator's World can only rejoice that we now have a new publication. Imago Mundi is wonderful, but we also need something more informal. Congratulations to all involved! Dee who is not only not connected with MapForum but hasn't as yet subscribed (that will soon be remedied). -- The Observatory, ABAA 200 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 907/586-9676 fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.com http://www.observatorybooks.com Since 1977 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:13:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Rosenwasser Subject: Re: [MapHist] The term "map mafia" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 I believe "The Usual Suspects" would be a more appropriate, less discomposing appellation. JMR --- Ed Dahl wrote: > JBP -- Having checked the dictionary to refresh my > memory about > the meaning of the word "mafia," I would like to > register my vote > against using it for the purposes you propose below. > > Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau, Québec J8R > 3K5, CANADA > TEL: (819) 561-4029 FAX: (819) 561-7753 > edahl@iosphere.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J.B. Post" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:04 AM > Subject: [MapHist] Map Forum in print form > > > I think it good news that MAP FORUM will now > appear in print. Paper is > sturdier than electrons and the technology doesn't > change so rapidly that > retrieval becomes a problem. > > Looking at the board members, the term "map > mafia" comes to mind. Many > years ago, I had buttons made up reading "Secret > Master of Mapdom" and gave > them out to key map librarians in the US. The term > "map mafia" is much > better a collective description of the major players > and I think the field > should adopt it. > > JBP > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] The term "map mafia X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a (Intl) 17 August 1999 From: mark@ofn.is Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:44:15 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on NotesOFN/Ofnasmidjan(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 08.07.2004 09:44:22, Serialize complete at 08.07.2004 09:44:22 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0
MapHisters,
How about Carta Nostra?
MEC
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Michelin book Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:35:32 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0
   The book, The Michelin Men: driving an empire by Herbert Lottman (London & N.Y.: Tauris, 2003) is an interesting business history of Michelin.  Yes, family history as well, but mostly the outline of the growth of the business - including not only the tire/tyre business, but the guidebooks and maps as well.  This is not a history of the Michelin maps from a history of cartography viewpoint, but of their development as marketing tools to encourage travel, hopefully on Michelin tires.  Still worth at least a scan by members of the map community. 
 
               JBP
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Originating-IP: [24.116.177.98] X-Originating-Email: [rhekier@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rhekier@hotmail.com From: "Ron Hekier" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Michelin book Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:27:12 +0000 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 02:27:12.0461 (UTC) FILETIME=[3DFD17D0:01C4655C] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 The September 2002 issue of Mercator's World had a story detailing the Michelin guide/business as well. Regards, Ron Hekier >From: "J.B. Post" >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: >Subject: [MapHist] Michelin book Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:35:32 -0400 > > The book, The Michelin Men: driving an empire by Herbert Lottman >(London & N.Y.: Tauris, 2003) is an interesting business history of >Michelin. Yes, family history as well, but mostly the outline of the >growth of the business - including not only the tire/tyre business, but the >guidebooks and maps as well. This is not a history of the Michelin maps >from a history of cartography viewpoint, but of their development as >marketing tools to encourage travel, hopefully on Michelin tires. Still >worth at least a scan by members of the map community. > > JBP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Route nostalgie" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Michelin book Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:37:38 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira Milter 1.0.6; VAE 6.25.0.62; VDF 6.25.0.97 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.9 required=5.0 It exist in France the ASSOCIATION of the COLLECTORS of GUIDES and ROADMAPS MICHELIN 300 members from all country. http://www.collectionneurs-michelin.com/ (French) http://www.collectionneurs-michelin.com/english_index.html (English) http://www.collectionneurs-michelin.com/d_index.html (Deutch) an a mailling list on this subject. This year 2 new books are published but reserved to members. - Detailled listing of the all versions of 1/200000 Michelin maps ~1908-1980 - Detailled listing of the all red guide versions 1900-actual with also listing of the all battle guide versions Pascal Pannetier Magazine Route Nostalgie Association Auto Mobilier Collections routenostalgie@free.fr http://routenostalgie.free.fr http://automobi.free.fr http://oldmaps.free.fr http://memoireenroute.free.fr -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]De la part de Ron Hekier Envoyé : vendredi 9 juillet 2004 04:27 À : maphist@geog.uu.nl Objet : RE: [MapHist] Michelin book The September 2002 issue of Mercator's World had a story detailing the Michelin guide/business as well. Regards, Ron Hekier >From: "J.B. Post" >Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >To: >Subject: [MapHist] Michelin book Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:35:32 -0400 > > The book, The Michelin Men: driving an empire by Herbert Lottman >(London & N.Y.: Tauris, 2003) is an interesting business history of >Michelin. Yes, family history as well, but mostly the outline of the >growth of the business - including not only the tire/tyre business, but the >guidebooks and maps as well. This is not a history of the Michelin maps >from a history of cartography viewpoint, but of their development as >marketing tools to encourage travel, hopefully on Michelin tires. Still >worth at least a scan by members of the map community. > > JBP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:16:21 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: [MapHist] Mercator makes the Investors Business Daily! X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.4 required=5.0 Believe it or not, there is half page article on Gerard Mercator in IBD today, July 9. Page A3. A source many MapHister's might miss! Take care, John Day _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Mercator makes the Investors Business Daily! To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl, owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:31:42 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 07/09/2004 11:31:43 AM X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 http://www.investors.com/editorial/lands.asp?v=7/9 Here is url for the article. Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson John Day To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Sent by: cc: owner-maphist@pop Subject: [MapHist] Mercator makes the Investors .geog.uu.nl Business Daily! 07/09/2004 11:16 AM Please respond to maphist Believe it or not, there is half page article on Gerard Mercator in IBD today, July 9. Page A3. A source many MapHister's might miss! Take care, John Day _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:04:08 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] List-owner's message: vacation and addresses removed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 Holiday season! From 11 to 29 July I am on vacation, without e-mail. All list-owner's business, such as forwarding non-member submissions, messages with illegal words, help with s u b scribing and u n s u b scribing etc. is postponed. To reduce the number of error messages I have removed the following e-mail addresses from the list, since they cause error messages at least since July 1st: ever810@hotmail.com lor26@hotmail.com macmap@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu engelsAG@t-online.de wilsonjw@jmu.edu If somebody knows the owner of (one of) these e-mail addresses, please inform him or her that they have to re-s*bscribe maphist with a working e-mail address. Thanks Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 9 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:37:13 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] Rumsey sites- Visual Collections X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I know most here are familiar with Rumsey's map image site, but I wasn't sure how many were aware of or had seen the expanded site: Visual Collections - images of art history and culture. It is worth a look. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: , "Jefferson Moak" Subject: [MapHist] Oldest, how determined Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:49:34 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl A few years back, the Yuengling Brewery in Pottsville, PA was claiming to be the oldest brewery. Not the earliest one founded, but the oldest surviving brewery in "America." A Canadian brewery contested this and the argument was over the definition of "America." I forgot which side won. The Baltimore publisher Williams & Wilkins (I think that's the correct name) is considered to be the oldest US publisher by some because it bought out Lea & Febiger (again not sure of the spelling), a Philadelphia area based medical publisher. L&F traces itself back to Cary & Hart and Cary & Lea. This strikes me as some sort of apostolic succession by cannibalism. If we accept this concept, Jeff Moak has demonstrated - he will have to supply the details - that Franklin Maps (formerly Franklin Survey) based in King of Prussia, PA is the oldest US map publisher since it acquired J. L. Smith which in turn can be traced back to earlier firms and surveyors. Franklin also picked up another map company in more recent times. Perhaps before this becomes an issue of great emotional investment, we should get some consensus on what the map community means by "oldest" when it comes to organizations, recognizing that both change and continuity of activities can come into play. At least the issue should be aired even if we don't all agree. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" , "*Lismaps" Subject: [MapHist] Next season's 'Maps and Society' programme Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:44:08 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear list, An early note for your diaries! Best wishes Tony Campbell ************************* 'MAPS AND SOCIETY' The Warburg Institute Fourteenth Series: 2004-2005 ************************* Lectures in the history of cartography convened by Catherine Delano Smith (Institute of Historical Research) and Tony Campbell (formerly Map Library, British Library). Meetings are held on selected Thursdays at The Warburg Institute, University of London,Woburn Square, London WC1H OAB at 5.00 pm. Admission is free. Meetings are followed by refreshments. All are most welcome. Enquiries: +44 (0) 20 8346 5112 (Dr Delano Smith) or < t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk >. 2004 ----- October 28. Dr David Hill (Department of English, University of Manchester) Laurence Nowell's Anglo-Saxon Atlas of 1563. November 18. Dr Lesley Cormack (Department of History and Classics, University of Alberta, Canada) The Molyneux Globes: Instruments, Mathematical Practitioners and the Scientific Revolution. 2005 ------ January 20. Dr Dorothea McEwan (The Warburg Institute) Aby Warburg's (1866-1929) Dots and Lines: Mapping the Diffusion of Astrological Motifs in Art History. ------------------------------------------- February 10. Robert Headland (Scott Polar Institute, University of Cambridge) The Non-Existent Islands of the Antarctic on Maps, Ancient and Modern. ** Meeting sponsored by the Hakluyt Society ** ------------------------------------------- March 10. 'The Map in Book History': Dr Moya Carey (Independent Scholar) Star Maps for Ibn al-Sufi's poem (Baghdad, 1125); Hilary Hunt (The Warburg Institute) The Map of 'The Seven Churches of Rome' (1575) in Travel Guides; Dr Stephanie Coane (U.C.L. and The Warburg Institute) A Map from the Published Account of La Pérouse's Expedition around the World (1797). April 14. Surekha Davies (Maps, The British Library) The Vomiting Giant and Other Stories: First Steps among the Monstrous Peoples on Maps of America c. 1506-1648. May 5. Professor Stephen Daniels (Department of Geography, University of Nottingham) Maps and Education in Georgian England. May 26. Lindsay Braun (Department of History, Rutgers University, U.S.A.) 'A portion of our country comparatively unknown': Fred Jeppe, the Zoutpansberg, and the Cartography of the Transvaal, 1867-1899. -------------------------------------------------------------- This programme has been made possible through the generous sponsorship of The International Map Collectors' Society, Jonathan Potter of Jonathan Potter Ltd., and Laurence Worms of Ash Rare Books. Each lecture is accompanied by a display, at the Royal Geographical Society, Kensington, arranged by Francis Herbert, Hon FRGS. -------------------------------------------------------------- The web version of the programme < http://www.maphistory.info/warburgprog.html > can be bookmarked, as it will always contain the current details. For a comprehensive list of talks and meetings in the history of cartography, see John Docktor's 'Calendar' < http://home.earthlink.net/~docktor/index.htm > -------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Campbell _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 17 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul van den Brink" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Next season's 'Maps and Society' programme Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:37:26 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Tony Last week I ordered the microfilming of the "Imago-Mundi-files" at the National Archives in The Hague. It will take 4 to 6 weeks to complete the job. Best wishes Paul van den Brink _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:38:52 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Next season's 'Maps and Society' programme X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Tony > >Last week I ordered the microfilming of the "Imago-Mundi-files" at the >National Archives in The Hague. It will take 4 to 6 weeks to complete the >job. This is great! My first reaction though is why not have them scanned and put on CDs? Wouldn't that be even more useful? Then my second reaction was the problems of format. Do we think digital formats are sufficiently stable? I don't especially want to get stuck with another MARC format for images where the format is more dictated by the constraints of early technology than by the problem. Do we have any idea yet on the potential lifetime of CD vs film? But CD would make IM more available to more people than film. Hmmm. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul van den Brink" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Next season's 'Maps and Society' programme Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:48:34 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear all Unfortunately I pushed the wrong button and my private message to Tony was delivered to the list. Paul van den Brink ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Day" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Next season's 'Maps and Society' programme > >Tony > > > >Last week I ordered the microfilming of the "Imago-Mundi-files" at the > >National Archives in The Hague. It will take 4 to 6 weeks to complete the > >job. > > This is great! My first reaction though is why not have them scanned > and put on CDs? Wouldn't that be even more useful? > > Then my second reaction was the problems of format. Do we think > digital formats are sufficiently stable? I don't especially want to > get stuck with another MARC format for images where the format is > more dictated by the constraints of early technology than by the > problem. Do we have any idea yet on the potential lifetime of CD vs > film? > > But CD would make IM more available to more people than film. Hmmm. > > Take care, > John > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 21 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:50:30 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on the Web? To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
What a conservative bunch we historians of cartography are.  It would be an excellent idea to digitize the back issues of Imago Mundi.  But instead of putting the files on CD-ROM, why not put them up on the Web so that everybody can get at them easily?  In fact, we ought to do the same with the back issues of most journals dealing with maps.  There has been too much grousing on MapHist about the alledged "instability" of digital files.  Those with little faith in the Web as a means of preserving and providing access to back issues of journals should contemplate JSTOR (www.jstor.org).  We should work towards a (subscription free) JSTOR for cartographic literature.
 
David Allen
Librarian, Emeritus
Stony Brook University
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "a.d.j.murray" To: Subject: [MapHist] Admiralty chart 780 (1923 edition) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:58:45 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
 
I'm wondering if anyone has access to British Admiralty chart number 780 (1923 edition) of the western
Pacific. I'm hoping someone might be able to check a position given on this chart for me.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Regards Angus Murray
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:12:30 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on the Web? X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl ArialWhat a conservative bunch we historians of cartography are. It would be an excellent idea to digitize the back issues of Imago Mundi. But instead of putting the files on CD-ROM, why not put them up on the Web so that everybody can get at them easily? In fact, we ought to do the same with the back issues of most journals dealing with maps. There has been too much grousing on MapHist about the alledged "instability" of digital files. Those with little faith in the Web as a means of preserving and providing access to back issues of journals should contemplate JSTOR (<www.jstor.org). We should work towards a (subscription free) JSTOR for cartographic literature. Arial The Web is probably the most ephemeral of sources. Sites come and go on a very regular basis. When I search the web for sources for research, if I can't download the material so I know where it is when I want to cite it, I don't use it. To many times, I have been lazy and just kept a URL only to find it was no good when I wanted to use it. The problem of format is not one to treat too lightly. I have already seen many important historical materials (not cartographic) lost because of now inaccessible formats. Probably at least 2 or 3 generations of technology. JPEGs and MPEG may seem to be here to stay, but so were floppy disks, 9-track tape, and several other media not consigned to the dustbin. I wouldn't rely on the Web. (Spoken as one who has been working on the 'Net since 1970, and did an investigation into the feasiblity of on-line journals in 1975. (It was cost-effective then.)) The web is convenient when it is there, but it is not a reliable source. There is really some question as to whether it ever can be in the current environment. I will take a CD or film or even paper. ;-) Take care, John X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Tom Woodfin" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on the Web? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:29:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-COA-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-COA-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-COA-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (score=-3.6, required 7, AWL 0.00, BAYES_10 -4.70, HTML_20_30 1.47, IN_REP_TO -0.37, MSGID_GOOD_EXCHANGE -0.14) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
I second David Allen's suggestion whole-heartedly.  JSTOR is an excellent source and will be a powerful instrument to dessiminate the scholarly literature on cartographic history to a much wider audience.  There are others as well. 
 
Tom Woodfin

Thomas M. Woodfin, ASLA
Assoc. Professor of Landscape Architecture  
College of Architecture
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX  77843-3137
tel: 979-845-1079
fax: 979-862-1784
e: woodfin@tamu.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Dyallen2@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:51 AM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on the Web?

What a conservative bunch we historians of cartography are.  It would be an excellent idea to digitize the back issues of Imago Mundi.  But instead of putting the files on CD-ROM, why not put them up on the Web so that everybody can get at them easily?  In fact, we ought to do the same with the back issues of most journals dealing with maps.  There has been too much grousing on MapHist about the alledged "instability" of digital files.  Those with little faith in the Web as a means of preserving and providing access to back issues of journals should contemplate JSTOR (www.jstor.org).  We should work towards a (subscription free) JSTOR for cartographic literature.
 
David Allen
Librarian, Emeritus
Stony Brook University
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Admiralty chart 780 (1923 edition) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:34:42 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl

Wonder no longer.  An 8th January 1923 edition (with 4 small corrections noted at bottom left), awaiting instructions, is on my desk.

 

Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps - and even Admiralty Charts)

f.herbert@rgs.org

http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections']

 

-----Original Message-----
From: a.d.j.murray [mailto:a.d.j.murray@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 15 July 2004 16:59
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Admiralty chart 780 (1923 edition)

 

 

I'm wondering if anyone has access to British Admiralty chart number 780 (1923 edition) of the western

Pacific. I'm hoping someone might be able to check a position given on this chart for me.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Regards Angus Murray

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl, owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:35:40 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 07/15/2004 12:35:41 PM X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Amen to that! Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson David Cobb cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi owner-maphist@pop .geog.uu.nl 07/15/2004 12:37 PM Please respond to maphist Colleagues - I would suspect that there are discussions with Routledge for converting the back issues of Imago Mundi. Since they are the publisher offering the current issues online (naturally for a fee) I believe that they are the obvious party to entertain discussions of the back files. We should not let a misdirected "personal" messages set us off on a tirade one way or the other. In spite of their prices, and there is a reason for them, the major publishers offering online subscriptions have a proven track record which involves imaging standards and useful indexing. It is the major publishers who will maintain the websites and probably still be around for several years. David Cobb *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl, owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.4 June 8, 2000 From: "ahudson" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:35:40 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MHTMAIL02/MHT/Nypl(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 07/15/2004 12:35:41 PM X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Amen to that! Alice C. Hudson Chief, Map Division The Humanities and Social Sciences Library The New York Public Library 5th Avenue & 42nd Street, Room 117 New York, NY 10018-2788 ahudson@nypl.org; 212-930-0589; fax 212-930-0027 http://nypl.org/research/chss/map/map.html The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson David Cobb cc: Sent by: Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi owner-maphist@pop .geog.uu.nl 07/15/2004 12:37 PM Please respond to maphist Colleagues - I would suspect that there are discussions with Routledge for converting the back issues of Imago Mundi. Since they are the publisher offering the current issues online (naturally for a fee) I believe that they are the obvious party to entertain discussions of the back files. We should not let a misdirected "personal" messages set us off on a tirade one way or the other. In spite of their prices, and there is a reason for them, the major publishers offering online subscriptions have a proven track record which involves imaging standards and useful indexing. It is the major publishers who will maintain the websites and probably still be around for several years. David Cobb *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:46 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Colleagues - I would suspect that there are discussions with Routledge for converting the back issues of Imago Mundi. Since they are the publisher offering the current issues online (naturally for a fee) I believe that they are the obvious party to entertain discussions of the back files. We should not let a misdirected "personal" messages set us off on a tirade one way or the other. In spite of their prices, and there is a reason for them, the major publishers offering online subscriptions have a proven track record which involves imaging standards and useful indexing. It is the major publishers who will maintain the websites and probably still be around for several years. David Cobb *************************************************************************** David A. Cobb Tel. 617.495.2417 Harvard Map Collection FAX 617.496.0440 Harvard College Library Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu Cambridge, MA 02138 HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps ************************** VERITAS **************************************** _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 25 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: "*MapHist" Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on JSTOR today Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:40:13 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Colleagues, By one of those coincidences that give life its continuing interest it was precisely today that I learnt that the full back run of Imago Mundi is now up on the JSTOR site. This is the culmination of a process I announced to the list on 14 October 2003. I would have held off announcing this major event for a few more days - I have literally just sent out personal messages to all those directly involved in the journal's management and creation - but it seems sensible to inject this news into the present discussion. David Allen's views about the need for free access are well known, and doubtless command wide sympathy apart, perhaps, from some of those who have to make the considerable investment that is essential to provide access. JSTOR have undertaken the digitising and mounting on their website of the entire pre-Routledge (Taylor & Francis) backrun of Imago Mundi, i.e. vols 1-54 (1935-2002). The whole set is now fully searchable, thus satisfying our aim to offer, for the first time, a comprehensive index to the premier journal in our subject. Imago Mundi has now become accessible for those whose institutions subscribe to JSTOR, but which do not have a full run of the journal. Go to < http://www.jstor.org >, where you will find IM along with over 400 other scholarly journals. I do not wish to be drawn further about the financial environment in which JSTOR operates, beyond pointing out that they are an "independent not-for-profit organization" established in 1995, whose first stated goal is "to build a reliable and comprehensive archive of important scholarly journal literature" [on this see the 'Background Information' section of the "About JSTOR" section]. Before the discussion develops further about the desirability of a (preferably free) archive of history of cartography literature, it would be as well to take stock of this momentous development in the history of Imago Mundi, now moored in the only safe electronic archive identified by its Board of Directors. Paired with the online access offered since 2003 by its current publisher, Imago Mundi has now at last become accessible to the wider scholarly community even if, through financial necessity, only via institutional subscription. Tony Campbell Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd **************************************** t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW UK Phone: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/03085694.asp [subscriptions and sales - Taylor & Francis (Routledge)] http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html [journal content] ******************************************* _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:05:16 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on JSTOR today X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Imago Mundi has now at last become accessible to the wider scholarly >community even if, through financial necessity, only via institutional >subscription. And apparently jstor.org does not want individual researchers (ie, those w/ no institutional affiliation) mucking about in their resources. On their website, they suggest that the unwashed make separate arrangements with some 30+ publishers. Perhaps the cost of a jstor subscription puts it beyond the range of an individual, but it would seem that such people are unwelcome at any price. I hope I've got that wrong though. John Woram --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Michael_Ritter@t-online.de (Michael Ritter) To: Subject: [MapHist] Earliest atlas of Matthaeus Seutter Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:19:39 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-ID: Srcw+eZdQeHrUp9FZua3jGHL7yB-H9rf7dMXBnTbzwsJa+mfS4A8Qo X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I am trying to find out when the Augsburg cartographer Matthaeus Seutter (1678-1757) started to publish atlases. His first atlas was called "Atlas novus sive tabulae geographicae" or - on a second title page - "Atlas geographicus oder Accurate Vorstellung der ganzen Welt". I know only one single copy of this atlas dated in 1720, the next ones I found were published in 1725 and 1726. Does this mean that Seutter didn't make atlases for about 5 years? I can't believe that, so this is my question: Does anyone know where I can find other Seutter atlases dated before 1725? Michael Michael Ritter Aichacher Str. 10 D-86577 Sielenbach _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 27 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Matthew Champion" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on JSTOR today Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:47:35 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I just spent a happy half hour wandering the JSTOR site - but couldn't find Imago Mundi anywhere. When will it be available? regards Matt Champion > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl > [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of tony campbell > Sent: 15 July 2004 21:40 > To: *MapHist > Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on JSTOR today > > > Colleagues, > > By one of those coincidences that give life its continuing interest it was > precisely today that I learnt that the full back run of Imago Mundi is now > up on the JSTOR site. This is the culmination of a process I announced to > the list on 14 October 2003. > > I would have held off announcing this major event for a few more days - I > have literally just sent out personal messages to all those directly > involved in the journal's management and creation - but it seems > sensible to > inject this news into the present discussion. > > David Allen's views about the need for free access are well known, and > doubtless command wide sympathy apart, perhaps, from some of > those who have > to make the considerable investment that is essential to provide access. > JSTOR have undertaken the digitising and mounting on their website of the > entire pre-Routledge (Taylor & Francis) backrun of Imago Mundi, i.e. vols > 1-54 (1935-2002). The whole set is now fully searchable, thus satisfying > our aim to offer, for the first time, a comprehensive index to the premier > journal in our subject. > > Imago Mundi has now become accessible for those whose > institutions subscribe > to JSTOR, but which do not have a full run of the journal. Go to < > http://www.jstor.org >, where you will find IM along with over 400 other > scholarly journals. > > I do not wish to be drawn further about the financial environment in which > JSTOR operates, beyond pointing out that they are an "independent > not-for-profit organization" established in 1995, whose first > stated goal is > "to build a reliable and comprehensive archive of important scholarly > journal literature" [on this see the 'Background Information' > section of the > "About JSTOR" section]. > > Before the discussion develops further about the desirability of a > (preferably free) archive of history of cartography literature, > it would be > as well to take stock of this momentous development in the > history of Imago > Mundi, now moored in the only safe electronic archive identified by its > Board of Directors. Paired with the online access offered since > 2003 by its > current publisher, Imago Mundi has now at last become accessible to the > wider scholarly community even if, through financial necessity, only via > institutional subscription. > > Tony Campbell > Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd > **************************************** > t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > > 76 Ockendon Road > London N1 3NW > UK > > Phone: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 > > http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/03085694.asp [subscriptions and > sales - Taylor & Francis (Routledge)] > http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html [journal content] > ******************************************* > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:17:09 -0400 From: Bert Johnson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Imago Mundi on JSTOR today X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Tony Nice sense of timing, I must say. I am delighted to hear that JSTOR will now carry the full IM line-up from birth to present. I have often used JSTOR and find it an excellent resource, although I've seldom used it for history of cartography. It's an amazing resource for making "small" journals (in terms of circulation) available to a much wider audience. I have enjoyed just exploring JSTOR to see what else is in there. I should add that I am an unaffiliated individual. I am fortunate, however, to live in an area where some publicly accessable libraries and institutions do affiliate with JSTOR, and I'm not certain how common that is. The availability of IM on JSTOR is nevertheless a major step forward, and a great move by IM and its publisher. Thanks to whomever made it possible. Bert tony campbell wrote: >Colleagues, > >By one of those coincidences that give life its continuing interest it was >precisely today that I learnt that the full back run of Imago Mundi is now >up on the JSTOR site. This is the culmination of a process I announced to >the list on 14 October 2003. > >I would have held off announcing this major event for a few more days - I >have literally just sent out personal messages to all those directly >involved in the journal's management and creation - but it seems sensible to >inject this news into the present discussion. > >David Allen's views about the need for free access are well known, and >doubtless command wide sympathy apart, perhaps, from some of those who have >to make the considerable investment that is essential to provide access. >JSTOR have undertaken the digitising and mounting on their website of the >entire pre-Routledge (Taylor & Francis) backrun of Imago Mundi, i.e. vols >1-54 (1935-2002). The whole set is now fully searchable, thus satisfying >our aim to offer, for the first time, a comprehensive index to the premier >journal in our subject. > >Imago Mundi has now become accessible for those whose institutions subscribe >to JSTOR, but which do not have a full run of the journal. Go to < >http://www.jstor.org >, where you will find IM along with over 400 other >scholarly journals. > >I do not wish to be drawn further about the financial environment in which >JSTOR operates, beyond pointing out that they are an "independent >not-for-profit organization" established in 1995, whose first stated goal is >"to build a reliable and comprehensive archive of important scholarly >journal literature" [on this see the 'Background Information' section of the >"About JSTOR" section]. > >Before the discussion develops further about the desirability of a >(preferably free) archive of history of cartography literature, it would be >as well to take stock of this momentous development in the history of Imago >Mundi, now moored in the only safe electronic archive identified by its >Board of Directors. Paired with the online access offered since 2003 by its >current publisher, Imago Mundi has now at last become accessible to the >wider scholarly community even if, through financial necessity, only via >institutional subscription. > >Tony Campbell >Chairman, Imago Mundi Ltd >**************************************** >t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk > >76 Ockendon Road >London N1 3NW >UK > >Phone: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 > >http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/03085694.asp [subscriptions and >sales - Taylor & Francis (Routledge)] >http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html [journal content] >******************************************* > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:10:38 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Imago Mundi, Preservation, and Access To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
This subject could use some more discussion and clarification.  We need to separate the subjects of preservation and access, and take a better informed look at the issues surrounding the preservation of digital information.
 
First, I would like to add my expression of delight to Tony's announcement about Imago Mundi becoming available on JSTOR.  From the point of view of preserving the digital files one could scarcely do better.  JSTOR and the organizations with which it is associated have done extensive research on the procedures for preserving digital files, and I certainly feel more confidence in JSTOR's commitment to preservation than I do in that of commercial publishers.
 
From the point of view of access, JSTOR leaves much to be desired.  Fortunately for me, I still have ties to an institution that makes JSTOR available to me, and it is also true that many people in the U.S. can get access by walking into a nearby research library.  But this still leaves a lot of people out in the cold.  I wish some charitable foundation or government would just give JSTOR enough money to make its files available to everybody.  As far as I am concerned, this would be a much more effective (and infinitely less costly) way for the U.S. government to spread democratic values throughout the world than dropping billions of dollars worth of bombs on Iraq and elsewhere.
 
A number of people on this list have made poorly informed comments on the issues surrounding the preservation of digital materials.  I would only point out that there is a vast literature on this subject, and many libraries and archives are putting extensive resources into solving the problems of digital preservation.  It won't do to make generalizations based on the ephemeral nature of non-scholarly websites, or based on (frequently apocryphal) anecdotes about problems involved in retrieving digital data created forty years ago, when preservation was not yet an issue.  From this point it is tempting to launch into either a real diatribe, or into a multipage review of what is being done to assure the preservation of digital materials.  For better or worse, I don't have the energy to do either.
 
David Allen
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: karrowr@mail.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:50:11 -0500 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Robert Karrow Subject: [MapHist] Newberry Library Map, Atlas, and Cartographic Literature Catalogs now online X-Spam: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl We are delighted to announce that some 35,000 bibliographic records for Newberry maps, atlases, and cartographic literature are now available online at . There are currently two databases which can be searched separately or together. One, with 4,000 records, is the Bibliography of the History of Cartography; the other, with 31,000 records, is the Map and Atlas catalog. While not by any means a complete inventory of our holdings (estimated at 300,000 map titles), this catalog now includes everything in the old map card catalog, most of the map entries in the main card catalog, virtually all of the Ayer manuscript maps, all atlases, about half of the Novacco Collection, 70% of the Sack collection, some 900 items from the Rand McNally collection, all the Karpinski photostats, all county landownership maps and atlases, and more than 5,000 maps in atlases. The catalog is based on a ProCite database built up with great diligence and effort over some ten years by Patrick Morris, our Map Cataloger and Reference Librarian. Biblioserver is a new service, based in Tartu, Estonia, for mounting ProCite databases on the web, and its search and display capabilities are still being improved, but so far we are very impressed with its speed and power. Some of our records are quite brief, and users will note a number of inconsistencies, especially in regard to the forms of names employed. We have been willing to sacrifice bibliographic perfection for maximum comprehensiveness, but we intend to update the Biblioserver database regularly and will continue to edit it to improve consistency and presentation. The Newberry webpage contains a new introduction to our cartographic holdings, including links to Biblioserver . (These links display the catalog in a smaller window; a larger display is available by going directly to the Biblioserver address ). We encourage you to experiment with the database and to communicate with us about your experiences. The whole thing is very new to us, too, and we look forward to learning from you about its strengths and weaknesses. Robert W. Karrow, Jr., Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps Patrick Morris, Map Cataloger and Reference Librarian Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections, The Newberry Library, 60 W. Walton Street, Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324. Tel: 312-255-3554 (Karrow); 312-255-3674 (Morris). FAX: 312-255-3646. E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org, MorrisP@newberry.org. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:05:53 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
I received an offline request for a short bibliography on the preservation of digital resources.  I thought it would be a good idea if I shared it with the entire group.  I think anyone who comments on this subject should have at least a basic understanding of what is being done in the field.  If list members were better informed they might be more supportive of those of us who seek to digitize maps and other cartographic materials. 
 
A good starting place is a guide to digital preservation recently published online by a conservation group in North Carolina (http://www.ncecho.org/Guide/2004/preservation.htm).  Chapter 6, which deals with digital preservation, is non-technical and has well-selected links and references to other materials.
 
 
The Digital Conservation Coalition http://www.dpconline.org/graphics/index.html is also a good starting place for beginners, as well as a resource for experts.  Take a look at their "Handbook" for an introduction.
 
For a comprehensive bibliography go to Conservation Online (http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/).  Click on links for digital imaging and electronic records.  Note that much of the fundamental work in this area was done in the 1990s.
 
The online magazine DLib (http://www.dlib.org/) has many articles on this subject, and is a good place to learn about ongoing current developments.  Two recent articles worth looking at are:  Anne Kenney et. al., "Preservation Risk Management for Web Resources" (Jan. 2002) and Catherine Ayre and Adrienne Muir, "The Right to Preserve:  the Rights Issues of Digital Preservation" (March, 2004).
 
I hope these materials will encourage some of you to delve more deeply into this subject.  With a common understanding of the issues and problems (and what is being done to overcome them) we can have a more fruitful and interesting discussion.
 
David Allen
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:34:04 +0100 From: Doug Weller To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Hi, A new section has been launched on the 1421 site: http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp?Section=Part+I+%2Eii+%2D+The+Discovery+of+the+World I don't think people should underestimate the mischief he is causing. Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:53:36 -0400 From: overlee User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [151.203.181.30] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:51:21 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I don't think we can overestimate the mischief he is causing---or the amount of free publicity we have been giving him!  So why don't we cease mentioning the man and the book.  Martin Torodash

Doug Weller wrote:
Hi,

  A new section has been launched on the 1421 site:
  http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp?Section=Part+I+%2Eii+%2D+The+Discovery+of+the+World

  I don't think people should underestimate the mischief he is causing.

  Doug


  
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Charles Burroughs" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:07:58 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl < < . Is there any evidence? Yes - Chinese records claim their fleets reached both North Pole (30 claims) and South Pole (5 claims) (Professor Wei) (para. 9 refers). > > C'mon, give me a break - - how does a "fleet" reach the South Pole, much less the North Pole? Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]On Behalf Of Doug Weller Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 5:34 PM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps Hi, A new section has been launched on the 1421 site: http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp?Section=Part+I+%2Eii+%2D+The+Dis covery+of+the+World I don't think people should underestimate the mischief he is causing. Doug -- Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:26:17 -0700 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Re: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps
Fellow MapHist'ers.
I am grateful to Doug Weller for warning us about the latest claims made by Menzies, because reading the additions to the 1421 Web site can protect one against being blind-sided by this stuff in trickle-down form. 

However, I agree with Martin Torodash's recommendation that we not give Menzies further publicity by acting as if his latest assertions might be worth discussing. Addressing all that misinformation as if it might nevertheless be mined for useful information would blur even more the line between fantasy and scholarship -- just what Menzies has made it clear that he craves.

Kirsten A. Seaver

I don't think we can overestimate the mischief he is causing---or the amount of free publicity we have been giving him!  So why don't we cease mentioning the man and the book.  Martin Torodash

Doug Weller wrote:
Hi,

  A new section has been launched on the 1421 site:
 
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp?Section=Part+I+%2Eii+%2D+The+Discovery+of+the+World

  I don't think people should underestimate the mischief he is causing.

  Doug


 


-- 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:14:44 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 08:26 17/07/2004, you wrote: >Fellow MapHist'ers. >I am grateful to Doug Weller for warning us about the latest claims made >by Menzies, because reading the additions to the 1421 Web site can protect >one against being blind-sided by this stuff in trickle-down form. > >However, I agree with Martin Torodash's recommendation that we not give >Menzies further publicity by acting as if his latest assertions might be >worth discussing. Addressing all that misinformation as if it might >nevertheless be mined for useful information would blur even more the line >between fantasy and scholarship -- just what Menzies has made it clear >that he craves. The fact that he has been seeking personal contact with a lot of people (at least he did with me, he has sent me personal email to ask my opinion, while I don't know the man, I don't consider myself so important that I would be the only one) just shows you're right. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 37 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication X-Trace: 0Q1gH6xQZEA8e2tBJtuxaPRc/6DCf0CFyERBTVbvKTiKXKN5jTtwGQ== X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:17:01 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Tom Sander Subject: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl To the List,

The 1421 messages have started flying again, and the 1421 website claims "Penguin Television documentary to be aired on July 21st on PBS in the USA."

Maryland Public Television (http://www.mpt.org/) is advertising that it will be broadcasting the TV show based on the book as follows:

1421: The Year China Discovered America?
Episode One--The first hour introduces the controversial theory of British author Gavin Menzies, who has devoted nine years to proving that Zheng He and his Ming fleet of more than 100 ships reached America before Columbus. This episode investigates what is known about the fleet and its historic voyages, and the impact they had on the civilizations around the rim of the Indian Ocean. The program retraces the armada's journey to far-flung outposts throughout China, Southeast Asia, Arabia, India and Africa. Dramatic reconstructions using computer graphics bring to life the Ming fleet's scale and the unique design of the spectacular 400-foot treasure ships within the armada - a nautical achievement never surpassed by any other wooden fleet. The program the questions: Could the armada truly have sailed around Africa's Cape of Good Hope and reach the Americas? And will Menzies' investigations rewrite history and change the way people view the world?
Episode Two--The second hour: This episode puts Menzies' controversial theory to the test, visiting locations to search for clues and drawing together contemporary historical accounts, archaeology and a wealth of evidence from consultations with scholars to investigate Menzies' claims. Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, that they entered the Atlantic Ocean, that they visited or settled in America or indeed produced a Master Chart of the World. Menzies claims he can't be proved wrong. However, the discovery that led to his investigation has unearthed mysteries surrounding both the discovery of America and the true nature of the Ming voyages.

Length: 1 hr 54 min


Air Times: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 09:00 PM EDT (channel: MPT)
and  Thursday, July 22, 2004 01:30 AM EDT     (channel MPT)
WMPT broadcasts on TV Channel 22 in the Washington DC region.


Regards,

Tom Sander
Burke, Virginia


X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Philippe Forêt Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:18:41 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear colleagues, The history of cartography is rich in hoaxes, frauds and stunts. Could we think about writing a book (scholarly, but still readable) 1. to refute and burry Menzies "controversial theory" and 2. to discuss the conditions that have led to the successful exploitation of gullibility by an holy alliance of authors / publishers / medias? I would volunteer to write a chapter on the Chinese sources on Zheng He's expeditions. The reviews of 1421, negative of course, that I have seen published in places like New Zealand and Sweden may not have been enough to educate the public. Best regards, Philippe Forêt Le 17 juil. 2004, à 05:17, Tom Sander a écrit : To the List, The 1421 messages have started flying again, and the 1421 website claims "HelveticaPenguin Television documentary to be aired on July 21st on PBS in the USA." Maryland Public Television (Helvetica0000,0000,EEEEhttp://www.mpt.org/) is advertising that it will be broadcasting the TV show based on the book as follows: Helvetica1421: The Year China Discovered America?Helvetica HelveticaEpisode OneHelvetica--The first hour introduces the controversial theory of British author Gavin Menzies, who has devoted nine years to proving that Zheng He and his Ming fleet of more than 100 ships reached America before Columbus. This episode investigates what is known about the fleet and its historic voyages, and the impact they had on the civilizations around the rim of the Indian Ocean. The program retraces the armada's journey to far-flung outposts throughout China, Southeast Asia, Arabia, India and Africa. Dramatic reconstructions using computer graphics bring to life the Ming fleet's scale and the unique design of the spectacular 400-foot treasure ships within the armada - a nautical achievement never surpassed by any other wooden fleet. The program the questions: Could the armada truly have sailed around Africa's Cape of Good Hope and reach the Americas? And will Menzies' investigations rewrite history and change the way people view the world? HelveticaEpisode TwoHelvetica--The second hour: This episode puts Menzies' controversial theory to the test, visiting locations to search for clues and drawing together contemporary historical accounts, archaeology and a wealth of evidence from consultations with scholars to investigate Menzies' claims. Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, that they entered the Atlantic Ocean, that they visited or settled in America or indeed produced a Master Chart of the World. Menzies claims he can't be proved wrong. However, the discovery that led to his investigation has unearthed mysteries surrounding both the discovery of America and the true nature of the Ming voyages. HelveticaLength: 1 hr 54 min Air Times: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 09:00 PM EDT (channel: MPT) and  Thursday, July 22, 2004 01:30 AM EDT     (channel MPT) WMPT broadcasts on TV Channel 22 in the Washington DC region. Regards, Tom Sander Burke, Virginia X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:27:04 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 03:18 AM 7/17/2004, you wrote:
The history of cartography is rich in hoaxes, frauds and stunts.

So goes the history of many of the hard and soft sciences. People have different standards of evidence, and different belief systems. They may not even be internally consistent for one individual. You can try to explain things to the public based on best available evidence, but they may prefer other explanations or other messengers. The charming rascal is here to stay (and every once in a while the rascal may be right). All this is certainly true in medicine, and about the only time you will see any broad public outcry is when large groups of people are hurt. There have been long-standing assumptions that if you could just give people the proper evidence and education, they could see the 'truth'. Good luck. There are enough examples of old scientific dogmas being overturned to make an educated public skeptical.

With respect to maps themselves, the point has been made that all maps lie. That is a bit harsh, but served as the premise for Monmonier's book, How to Lie with Maps, whose forward (by HJ de Blij, for the second edition) summarizes these issues quite well, including the line where information crosses to advocacy. Do not misunderstand me...I am not supporting Menzies'. But as to the publicity flurry, it's deja vu all over again.

              Joel Kovarsky

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:42:18 +0200 From: piero falchetta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, sq, be, bg, tr, it To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] 1421 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl The documentary "1421" contains also an interview where I try to refute Menzie's theory, as far as it concerns his hypothesis of a "chinese map" brought from China by Nicolò de Conti.

--
Piero Falchetta, responsabile
Ufficio Carte Geografiche della Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana
Piazzetta S. Marco 7
30124 Venezia (Italy)
tel +39-041-2407211 (operator)
tel +39-041-2407224 (direct)
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X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:18:09 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Tom Sander wrote: "Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, ..." If so, how does one respond to the following: "He [Pedro Meléndez] said that pieces of the kind of ships used by the Chinese had been seen in the Northern Sea [Atlantic Ocean], which would not be possible if there were no passage from one sea to the other." José de Acosta, 1590 in "Historia Natural y Moral de las Indias." I imagine Menzies could make (and probably, has made) part of his case with observations such as this. And I suspect the above is not the only quote of its kind which gives him some ammunition. John Woram --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Lies? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:50:08 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl All maps have a bias/viewpoint, but to say "all maps lie" is misleading in its own way as any "theory" of who "discovered" what when. To accuse a diagram of a sewer system of lying because it doesn't show bus routes isn't valid, but one can make a case that the selection of certain scales, projections, colors can mislead the unwary. With propoganda, the intent is conscious, but an unconscious acceptance of certain assumptions may also be operating when maps are produced. And a map created for one purpose where it serves very well may be used in a different context to mislead. My aging memory fails me, but there were two books - a part one and a part two - published a few years ago on using maps to support viewpoints, particularly ecological ones. In my review of the first volume, I noted that the advice could be used by either side of a question. Perhaps "neutral" isn't the word to use, but the map-making process can be considered without regard to the intended use of the map. The social history of the map is another matter, however. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:03:13 -0400 From: Bert Johnson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Actually I believe Tom Sander quoted the text of the Maryland Public Television literature.  Indeed, Tom Sander wrote

"Maryland Public Television (http://www.mpt.org/) is advertising that it will be broadcasting the TV show based on the book as follows" and then went on to provide the summaries being used by MPT.

John Woram wrote:
Tom Sander wrote: "Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, ..."

If so, how does one respond to the following:

"He [Pedro Meléndez] said that pieces of the kind of ships used by the Chinese had been seen in the Northern Sea [Atlantic Ocean], which would not be possible if there were no passage from one sea to the other."

José de Acosta, 1590 in "Historia Natural y Moral de las Indias."

I imagine Menzies could make (and probably, has made) part of his case with observations such as this. And I suspect the above is not the only quote of its kind which gives him some ammunition.

John Woram

---
This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com 
_______________________________________________________________
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:18:39 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Actually I believe Tom Sander quoted the text of the Maryland Public >Television literature. Right! I didn't mean to attribute the quote to Tom -- it was just a "quoteback" to his message to keep the thread intact. John --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Info: This message was accepted for relay by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net as the sender used SMTP authentication X-Trace: LuD4BBcsO2BZ+RIUNV+/YbmmeRweKGi8JRNmq9JI5m86RBqAlSt/Vw== X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:41:46 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Tom Sander Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 & 22, 2004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Bert is correct.  My regrets to the list for not more clearly citing the Maryland Public Television website as the source of the content of the bulk of my message below.

Tom Sander
Burke, VA


At 09:03 AM 7/17/2004, Bert Johnson wrote:
Actually I believe Tom Sander quoted the text of the Maryland Public Television literature.  Indeed, Tom Sander wrote

"Maryland Public Television (http://www.mpt.org/) is advertising that it will be broadcasting the TV show based on the book as follows" and then went on to provide the summaries being used by MPT.





John Woram wrote:
Tom Sander wrote: "Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, ..."

If so, how does one respond to the following:

"He [Pedro Meléndez] said that pieces of the kind of ships used by the Chinese had been seen in the Northern Sea [Atlantic Ocean], which would not be possible if there were no passage from one sea to the other."

José de Acosta, 1590 in "Historia Natural y Moral de las Indias."

I imagine Menzies could make (and probably, has made) part of his case with observations such as this. And I suspect the above is not the only quote of its kind which gives him some ammunition.

John Woram



Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:17:01 -0400
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
From: Tom Sander <sanderva@erols.com>
Subject: "1421"  - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004

To the List,

The 1421 messages have started flying again, and the 1421 website claims "Penguin Television documentary to be aired on July 21st on PBS in the USA."

Maryland Public Television (http://www.mpt.org/) is advertising that it will be broadcasting the TV show based on the book as follows:

1421: The Year China Discovered America?
Episode One--The first hour introduces the controversial theory of British author Gavin Menzies, who has devoted nine years to proving that Zheng He and his Ming fleet of more than 100 ships reached America before Columbus. This episode investigates what is known about the fleet and its historic voyages, and the impact they had on the civilizations around the rim of the Indian Ocean. The program retraces the armada's journey to far-flung outposts throughout China, Southeast Asia, Arabia, India and Africa. Dramatic reconstructions using computer graphics bring to life the Ming fleet's scale and the unique design of the spectacular 400-foot treasure ships within the armada - a nautical achievement never surpassed by any other wooden fleet. The program the questions: Could the armada truly have sailed around Africa's Cape of Good Hope and reach the Americas? And will Menzies' investigations rewrite history and change the way people view the world?
Episode Two--The second hour: This episode puts Menzies' controversial theory to the test, visiting locations to search for clues and drawing together contemporary historical accounts, archaeology and a wealth of evidence from consultations with scholars to investigate Menzies' claims. Historians, archaeologists and scientists cast major doubts on the claims that the Chinese rounded the Cape of Good Hope, that they entered the Atlantic Ocean, that they visited or settled in America or indeed produced a Master Chart of the World. Menzies claims he can't be proved wrong. However, the discovery that led to his investigation has unearthed mysteries surrounding both the discovery of America and the true nature of the Ming voyages.

Length: 1 hr 54 min

Air Times: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 09:00 PM EDT (channel: MPT)
and  Thursday, July 22, 2004 01:30 AM EDT     (channel MPT)
WMPT broadcasts on TV Channel 22 in the Washington DC region.


Regards,

Tom Sander
Burke, Virginia
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:49:24 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 & 22, 2004 Cc: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Tom Sander wrote: "My regrets to the list for not more clearly citing the Maryland Public Television website as the source..." Tom, it was quite clear that your original message simply passed on what you'd seen on the TV website. It was my quoteback that "put the words in your mouth" (so to speak). Now, I'd still be interested to know if the experts have any comments regarding observations by Acosta (and perhaps others) that lend a bit of fuel to Menzies' fire. John --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Earliest atlas of Matthaeus Seutter Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:32:36 +0100 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Michael Ritter et al Two points. First, unless this is the 'single copy' you refer to, the auction house Christies offered a 1720 example of Seutter's Atlas Novus at their London sale 13 April 1988, lot 164. They provided me with a xerox of both the typographic titlepage and the decorative engraved frontispiece; the latter signed by Gottfried Rogg as designer and Carol[us] Remshard as engraver. Between 1720 and 1725/26 I think it highly likely that Seutter continued to make up and sell atlases. However he didn't bother to alter the titlepage(s) and thus they retain the original date 1720. As in other instances the date on a titlepage isn't necessarily the actual date of the edition. However, this doesn't account for the relative scarcity of 1720 Seutter atlases dated 1720; and I suggest that a census among libraries (especially in German-speaking Europe) may uncover further examples than the single copy you cite--unless you have already carried out such a search. In my collation of atlases in the British Library (still pending delayed publication) I can confirm that they don't have a copy of Seutter's 1720 atlas. The earliest has a titlepage dated 1730 with the latest dated map 1731. Best regards Rodney Shirley rws@dial.pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Ritter" To: Sent: 15 July 2004 22:19 Subject: [MapHist] Earliest atlas of Matthaeus Seutter > I am trying to find out when the Augsburg cartographer Matthaeus Seutter > (1678-1757) started to publish atlases. His first atlas was called "Atlas > novus sive tabulae geographicae" or - on a second title page - "Atlas > geographicus oder Accurate Vorstellung der ganzen Welt". I know only one > single copy of this atlas dated in 1720, the next ones I found were > published in 1725 and 1726. Does this mean that Seutter didn't make atlases > for about 5 years? I can't believe that, so this is my question: Does > anyone know where I can find other Seutter atlases dated before 1725? > > Michael > > Michael Ritter > Aichacher Str. 10 > D-86577 Sielenbach > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:35:02 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421"  - Coming to M aryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2 004 To: jsk@gamewood.net, maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 208 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Joel Kovarsky writes:

There have been long-standing assumptions that if you could just give people the proper evidence and education, they could see the 'truth'. Good luck. There are enough examples of old scientific dogmas being overturned to make an educated public skeptical.

The question is not one of whether Menzies is "right" or "wrong"; nor indeed whether any scientist is or was "right" or "wrong" or whether some accepted "truth" has survived or been overturned or whether the evidence supports or refutes. The question is whether the methods used to construct and support the theory have proven themselves to be reliable manufacturers of knowledge. Over the millenia Menzies's methods have generated little more than short-term publicity and long-term ridicule. If people are to be educated, it makes little sense to wrestle with ambiguous evidence and vastly more sense teaching how to know when you know something. Menzies would be an excellent case study in such an enterprise.

Regards,
daan Strebe


In a message dated 7/17/04 04:28:22, jsk@gamewood.net writes:


At 03:18 AM 7/17/2004, you wrote:

The history of cartography is rich in hoaxes, frauds and stunts.

So goes the history of many of the hard and soft sciences. People have different standards of evidence, and different belief systems. They may not even be internally consistent for one individual. You can try to explain things to the public based on best available evidence, but they may prefer other explanations or other messengers. The charming rascal is here to stay (and every once in a while the rascal may be right). All this is certainly true in medicine, and about the only time you will see any broad public outcry is when large groups of people are hurt. There have been long-standing assumptions that if you could just give people the proper evidence and education, they could see the 'truth'. Good luck. There are enough examples of old scientific dogmas being overturned to make an educated public skeptical.

With respect to maps themselves, the point has been made that all maps lie. That is a bit harsh, but served as the premise for Monmonier's book,
How to Lie with Maps, whose forward (by HJ de Blij, for the second edition) summarizes these issues quite well, including the line where information crosses to advocacy. Do not misunderstand me...I am not supporting Menzies'. But as to the publicity flurry, it's deja vu all over again.

              Joel Kovarsky


X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:55:22 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [MapHist] Re: [MapHist] "1421"  - Coming to M aryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2 004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 03:35 PM 7/17/2004, you wrote:
If people are to be educated, it makes little sense to wrestle with ambiguous evidence and vastly more sense teaching how to know when you know something. Menzies would be an excellent case study in such an enterprise.

I applaud your ambition, but I am very skeptical that this is 'doable', and I'm not convinced it is even a good idea. In academe you may have enough control over your immediate environment, but the minute you involve public media, including the net, with the diverse conversations and viewpoints, you run into trouble. Burdens of proof can be intensely problematic, particularly in public discourse.

Also, for the record, my original comments really were not centered on whether Menzies was right or wrong.

           Joel Kovarsky

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Strebe@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:26:50 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist]  Re: [MapHist] "1421"  - Coming to M aryland Public  Television July 21 and 22, 2 004 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 208 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Joel Kavorsky wrote:

Burdens of proof can be intensely problematic, particularly in public discourse.

Mr. Kavorsky, of course that is true, and that is precisely what I have stated makes no sense to debate the evidence. Perhaps I did not make myself sufficiently clear. The debate is NOT about whether the evidence stands up. Evidence is ambiguous. That's not the problem and not the question. The question is how the conclusion was arrived at, and anyone curious about Menzies's conclusions is intelligent enough, given proper education, to understand how charlatans operate. I'm not volunteering to participate in any such educational effort, mind you; I'm simply suggesting that those who proposed such an enterprise ought to stay away from debates about the degree of support various bits of evidence offer to Menzies's "theory" and instead demonstrate why it's no theory at all, and why anyone who uses such "methods" ought to be given no benefit of doubt.

Regards,
daan Strebe


In a message dated 7/17/04 12:56:20, jsk@gamewood.net writes:


At 03:35 PM 7/17/2004, you wrote:

If people are to be educated, it makes little sense to wrestle with ambiguous evidence and vastly more sense teaching how to know when you know something. Menzies would be an excellent case study in such an enterprise.

I applaud your ambition, but I am very skeptical that this is 'doable', and I'm not convinced it is even a good idea. In academe you may have enough control over your immediate environment, but the minute you involve public media, including the net, with the diverse conversations and viewpoints, you run into trouble. Burdens of proof can be intensely problematic, particularly in public discourse.

Also, for the record, my original comments really were not centered on whether Menzies was right or wrong.

           Joel Kovarsky


X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:51:20 -0700 From: "Duane F. Marble" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Newberry Library Map, Atlas, and Cartographic Literature Catalogs now online X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl While I am delighted that this material is now online, I am quite disappointed that no export format is provided that permits the results of a search to be downloaded into a local bibliographic database such as ProCite, EndNote, etc. Nor, for that matter, does the Newberry appear to support the now quite standard Z39.50 protocol that would be even more useful to use of the bibliographic resources. Biblioserver appears to more than a little bit behind the cutting edge of technology in this area. I would suggest requesting the assistance of OCLC in setting up a more advanced handling technology. Duane Marble Robert Karrow wrote: > We are delighted to announce that some 35,000 bibliographic > records for Newberry maps, atlases, and cartographic literature are > now available online at . There are > currently two databases which can be searched separately or together. > One, with 4,000 records, is the Bibliography of the History of > Cartography; the other, with 31,000 records, is the Map and Atlas > catalog. > While not by any means a complete inventory of our holdings > (estimated at 300,000 map titles), this catalog now includes > everything in the old map card catalog, most of the map entries in the > main card catalog, virtually all of the Ayer manuscript maps, all > atlases, about half of the Novacco Collection, 70% of the Sack > collection, some 900 items from the Rand McNally collection, all the > Karpinski photostats, all county landownership maps and atlases, and > more than 5,000 maps in atlases. > The catalog is based on a ProCite database built up with > great diligence and effort over some ten years by Patrick Morris, our > Map Cataloger and Reference Librarian. Biblioserver is a new service, > based in Tartu, Estonia, for mounting ProCite databases on the web, > and its search and display capabilities are still being improved, but > so far we are very impressed with its speed and power. Some of our > records are quite brief, and users will note a number of > inconsistencies, especially in regard to the forms of names employed. > We have been willing to sacrifice bibliographic perfection for maximum > comprehensiveness, but we intend to update the Biblioserver database > regularly and will continue to edit it to improve consistency and > presentation. The Newberry webpage contains a new introduction to our > cartographic holdings, including links to Biblioserver > . (These links > display the catalog in a smaller window; a larger display is available > by going directly to the Biblioserver address > ). We encourage you to experiment with > the database and to communicate with us about your experiences. The > whole thing is very new to us, too, and we look forward to learning > from you about its strengths and weaknesses. > > > > Robert W. Karrow, Jr., Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps > Patrick Morris, Map Cataloger and Reference Librarian > Roger & Julie Baskes Department of Special Collections, The Newberry > Library, 60 W. Walton Street, Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324. > Tel: 312-255-3554 (Karrow); 312-255-3674 (Morris). FAX: > 312-255-3646. E-Mail: KarrowR@newberry.org, MorrisP@newberry.org. -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Email: marble.1@osu.edu 2226 Primrose Lane Telephone: (541) 902-8837 Florence, OR 97439 Cell: (541) 991-1730 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:39:25 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear Maphisters I am helping to prepare an exhibition of maps here in Seoul and the curator would like to have some images of famous people who made those maps. (Ortelius, Blaeu, etc) Can anyone point me to some websites or send me some reasonable quality images? Please don't point me to books, since it's doubtful that I can get access to any of them over here. Thanks in advance for any help. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:28:27 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Dear Maphisters > >I am helping to prepare an exhibition of maps here in Seoul and the >curator would like to have some images of famous people who made >those maps. (Ortelius, Blaeu, etc) Can anyone point me to some >websites or send me some reasonable quality images? Please don't >point me to books, since it's doubtful that I can get access to any >of them over here. Henny, Having done some map research in Seoul, I would be curious who you are working with. I made some good friends there and have kept in touch with some of them for many years. Take care, john _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:23:44 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 12:28 18/07/2004, you wrote: >>Dear Maphisters >> >>I am helping to prepare an exhibition of maps here in Seoul and the >>curator would like to have some images of famous people who made those >>maps. (Ortelius, Blaeu, etc) Can anyone point me to some websites or send >>me some reasonable quality images? Please don't point me to books, since >>it's doubtful that I can get access to any of them over here. > >Henny, > >Having done some map research in Seoul, I would be curious who you are >working with. I made some good friends there and have kept in touch with >some of them for many years. Well, I have been working with a lot of people and it would be too much to mention all their names here, but this particular man is Kim, Yang Kyun. There are more on the project , a few map collectors as well, but I forgot their names. If I don't have Korean names on a business card and I don't forget to make notes, I will forget their names, since you don't meet people too often here (once or twice) and I have too many names to remember and the names do look like each other, however I never forget their faces. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "tony campbell" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:17:55 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Henny Savenije writes: "I am helping to prepare an exhibition of maps here in Seoul and the curator would like to have some images of famous people who made those maps. (Ortelius, Blaeu, etc). Can anyone point me to some websites or send me some reasonable quality images?" I have checked the 'Map History' site and the only reference I can find [on the 'Special Topics: People' page] to online portraits of mapmakers is Roderick Barron's "Portrait reference library" < http://www.barron.co.uk/?pgid=125 >. When I last looked there were about 25 portraits, not necessarily the ones wanted here. If anybody knows of any other online source for cartographic portraits, please copy me in - if you are replying directly to Henny. Thank you Tony Campbell ***************************************** 76 Ockendon Road London N1 3NW UK t.campbell@ockendon.clara.co.uk Tel: 020 7359 6477 International: +44 20 7359 6477 ****************************************** 'Map History / History of Cartography: THE Gateway to the Subject' http://www.maphistory.info/ ] _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:13:19 +0900 To: From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 19:17 18/07/2004, tony campbell wrote: >Henny Savenije writes: > >"I am helping to prepare an exhibition of maps here in Seoul and the curator >would like to have some images of famous people who made those maps. >(Ortelius, Blaeu, etc). Can anyone point me to some websites or send me some >reasonable quality images?" Well, this is what I have till now. www.hamel.co.kr/portraits.zip The quality is not always good, but it has become a rather big file. 6 Mb Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: john@woram.com@mail.woram.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:09:43 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Woram Subject: Re: [MapHist] Images of mapmakers X-RBL-Warning: SORBS-DUHL: Dynamic IP Address See: http://www.dnsbl.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/lookup?IP=24.185.215.124 X-Declude-Sender: john@woram.com [24.185.215.124] X-Spam-Tests-Failed: SORBS-DUHL [-4] X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Can anyone point me to some websites or send me some reasonable quality >images? There's a few on my site: Mercator, Hondius, Ortelius: http://www.galapagos.to/ephemera.htm#Portraits Scroll through the list and click on the links in the Mercator and Ortelius sections. Note there's also a hi-res (MrSID) image of the Galle portrait of Ortelius. John --- This E-mail was scanned for viruses by WebHouse, Inc. http://www.webhse.com _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "van der heijden" To: Subject: [MapHist] title-page Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:34:18 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl

 

to All

I came upon a printed title-page (separate sheet)

‘ Atlas Selectus universalis et topograficus sive Geographia nova et vetus (. . .) reverendi admodum ac prenobilis Domini Petri Joannis le Mire, A.D. MDCCLIII.’.

Does somebody know from which atlas ?

Henk van der Heijden

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:16:17 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
The latest exchange of messages about real or alleged Chinese explorations prompted me to take a close look at Matteo Ricci's 1602 map of the world.  There is a magnificent image of a Japanese copy of the map available at http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html
 
I am particularly interested in the parts of the map covering Alaska, northern Canada, and the coast of Siberia.  There are names or annotations on these areas in Chinese characters.  Does anybody know if they have been translated?  If not, would somebody on the list be willing to make a stab at translating them?
 
David Allen
Map Librarian, retired
Stony Brook University
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:07:20 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl ArialThe latest exchange of messages about real or alleged Chinese explorations prompted me to take a close look at Matteo Ricci's 1602 map of the world. There is a magnificent image of a Japanese copy of the map available at <http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html I am particularly interested in the parts of the map covering Alaska, northern Canada, and the coast of Siberia. There are names or annotations on these areas in Chinese characters. Does anybody know if they have been translated? If not, would somebody on the list be willing to make a stab at translating them? Arial Yes, they have. See. D'Elia, Pasquale. Il mappomondo di Cinese dell P. Matteo Ricci, S. J. Rome: Conservato presso la Biblioterra Vaticana, Vatican Library; 1938.Arial or Giles, Lionel. Translations from the Chinese World Map of Father Ricci, Part I. Geographical Journal; 1918; 52(4): 367-85. Giles, Lionel. Translations from the Chinese World Map of Father Ricci, Part II. Geographical Journal; 1919; 53(1): 19-30. It has always been curious how close the Ricci map gets the coast of Alaska. Notice that MacKenzie Bay and the rivers that run into it are on the map. Actually, I would like to know what the provenance of the map you reference is. It appears to be a colored woodblock print, but not one I was previously aware of in Japan. As far as I knew the there were only 3 woodblocks of the Ricci in Japan. (There are many copies however.) Take care, John X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:44:10 -0400 From: Strebe@aol.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 192.150.22.150 X-AOL-Language: english X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I can't take the time just now to translate in detail (surely someone else has already published translations?), but if you want a feel for what's going on I can supply that. Most of the place names on the American continent are simply Chinese characters used as phonetics for the European labels. For instance, the vertical label just to the right of the gulf in the yellow region of North America reads "Anian", which is, of course, a common 16th and 17th century toponym for the area. There are also descriptions of the alleged inhabitants, again probably just direct translations from the Ricci map. For example, the label upper left-most on the huge gray island between Asia and America states, "Land of the Night People". The next one to the lower right states, "People living in caves, wearing skins, with unknown mounts". (Mounts, as in, riding animals.) Regards, daan Strebe In a message dated 7/18/2004 12:16:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dyallen2@aol.com writes: >The latest exchange of messages about real or alleged Chinese explorations >prompted me to take a close look at Matteo Ricci's 1602 map of the world. >There is a magnificent image of a Japanese copy of the map available at >_http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html_ >(http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html) > >I am particularly interested in the parts of the map covering Alaska, >northern Canada, and the coast of Siberia. There are names or annotations on these >areas in Chinese characters. Does anybody know if they have been >translated? If not, would somebody on the list be willing to make a stab at >translating them? > >David Allen >Map Librarian, retired >Stony Brook University > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:12:59 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Thread-Index: AcRrX5l33X6/PMYITCqXmEATWEXnLAB//eaQ From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Message
Dear David
The National Library of Australia is hosting an International conference on web archiving this coming November.  Preliminary information about the conference is at the following website: http://www.nla.gov.au/webarchiving/index.html
Yours sincerely
Maura O'Connor
Map Curator
National Library of Australia
Canberra  ACT  2600
Phone : 61 2 6262 1280
Fax: 61 2 6161 1653
Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Dyallen2@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 July 2004 4:06 AM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information

I received an offline request for a short bibliography on the preservation of digital resources.  I thought it would be a good idea if I shared it with the entire group.  I think anyone who comments on this subject should have at least a basic understanding of what is being done in the field.  If list members were better informed they might be more supportive of those of us who seek to digitize maps and other cartographic materials. 
 
A good starting place is a guide to digital preservation recently published online by a conservation group in North Carolina (http://www.ncecho.org/Guide/2004/preservation.htm).  Chapter 6, which deals with digital preservation, is non-technical and has well-selected links and references to other materials.
 
 
The Digital Conservation Coalition http://www.dpconline.org/graphics/index.html is also a good starting place for beginners, as well as a resource for experts.  Take a look at their "Handbook" for an introduction.
 
For a comprehensive bibliography go to Conservation Online (http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/).  Click on links for digital imaging and electronic records.  Note that much of the fundamental work in this area was done in the 1990s.
 
The online magazine DLib (http://www.dlib.org/) has many articles on this subject, and is a good place to learn about ongoing current developments.  Two recent articles worth looking at are:  Anne Kenney et. al., "Preservation Risk Management for Web Resources" (Jan. 2002) and Catherine Ayre and Adrienne Muir, "The Right to Preserve:  the Rights Issues of Digital Preservation" (March, 2004).
 
I hope these materials will encourage some of you to delve more deeply into this subject.  With a common understanding of the issues and problems (and what is being done to overcome them) we can have a more fruitful and interesting discussion.
 
David Allen
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:33:18 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: [MapHist] Exhibition in Seoul. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sorry to bother the rest of the list. John it seems I can't send email to your personally, it gets bounced with a weird message. Anyhow, the exhibition is in The Seoul History Museum. Sincerely Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:50:48 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: Re: [MapHist] Exhibition in Seoul. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl >Sorry to bother the rest of the list. > >John it seems I can't send email to your personally, it gets bounced with a >weird message. Anyhow, the exhibition is in The Seoul History Museum. Henry, Try jeanjour@comcast.net or day@illinoisalumni.org Some Korean ISPs have been sources of spam and have been blacklist by US ISPs. My friend Lee In-Sook had trouble sending to me once or twice as well from her Korean ISP. Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:46:35 +1000 From: Robert Cribb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-Sender: robert.cribb@anu.edu.au X-Sender-Domain: anu.edu.au X-Spam-Score: (0) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I am teaching a course this semester called 'Lies, conspiracy and propaganda', and one of the themes involves training students in when to be sceptical about traveller's tales. We are using 1421 as a case study, because it provides so many examples of suspect reasoning. Philippe Forêt's idea of a book is a good one, but it would probably have to be a mass market single author volume to have a chance of competing. Robert Cribb Pacific and Asian History, RSPAS The Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200, Australia Tel. +61 2 6125 4247 Fax +61 2 6125 5525 e-mail robert.cribb@anu.edu.au _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:34:38 +0900 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [MapHist] "1421" - Coming to Maryland Public Television July 21 and 22, 2004 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 10:46 20/07/2004, you wrote: >I am teaching a course this semester called 'Lies, conspiracy and >propaganda', and one of the themes involves training students in when to >be sceptical about traveller's tales. We are using 1421 as a case study, >because it provides so many examples of suspect reasoning. > >Philippe Forêt's idea of a book is a good one, but it would probably have >to be a mass market single author volume to have a chance of competing. You might also use von Daniken's book "Where the Gods astronauts" but he has a website as well. This reasoning really resulted in an almost cult. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan (1797) http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "wangziqiang" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:09 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
The Chinese book named Li Madou Shi Jie Di Tu Yan Jiu (Study on Matteo Ricci's World Maps) will come out, maybe in Sept. this year. It is a pity that this book is in Chinese only .
 
The authors of this book are Huang Shijian and Gong Yingyan, and they had taken 5 years to collect the available literature on the subject. This forthcoming book includes 3 parts, which are "Compiling and Publishing", "Source and Editions", and "Literature". it also attaches more than 80 map sheets, many of which were compiled by Matteo Ricco, stored in all over the World.
 
Wang Ziqiang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 AM
Subject: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world

The latest exchange of messages about real or alleged Chinese explorations prompted me to take a close look at Matteo Ricci's 1602 map of the world.  There is a magnificent image of a Japanese copy of the map available at http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html
 
I am particularly interested in the parts of the map covering Alaska, northern Canada, and the coast of Siberia.  There are names or annotations on these areas in Chinese characters.  Does anybody know if they have been translated?  If not, would somebody on the list be willing to make a stab at translating them?
 
David Allen
Map Librarian, retired
Stony Brook University
X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 64 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:43:05 -0400 From: ExJournal@aol.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 162.84.197.43 X-AOL-Language: english X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl In a message dated 7/20/2004 12:04:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "wangziqiang" writes: >The Chinese book named Li Madou Shi Jie Di Tu Yan Jiu (Study on Matteo Ricci's World Maps) will come out, maybe in Sept. this year. It is a pity that this book is in Chinese only . > >The authors of this book are Huang Shijian and Gong Yingyan, and they had taken 5 years to collect the available literature on the subject. This forthcoming book includes 3 parts, which are "Compiling and Publishing", "Source and Editions", and "Literature". it also attaches more than 80 map sheets, many of which were compiled by Matteo Ricco, stored in all over the World. > >Wang Ziqiang >   >----- Original Message ----- >  From: Dyallen2@aol.com >  To: maphist@geog.uu.nl >  Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:16 AM >  Subject: [MapHist] Matteo Ricci 1602 map of the world > > >  The latest exchange of messages about real or alleged Chinese explorations prompted me to take a close look at Matteo Ricci's 1602 map of the world.  There is a magnificent image of a Japanese copy of the map available at http://www2.library.tohoku.ac.jp/kano/ezu/kon/kon.html > >  I am particularly interested in the parts of the map covering Alaska, northern Canada, and the coast of Siberia.  There are names or annotations on these areas in Chinese characters.  Does anybody know if they have been translated?  If not, would somebody on the list be willing to make a stab at translating them? > >  David Allen >  Map Librarian, retired >  Stony Brook University >Many thanks for forwarding this link. Can't help with the translations, but note that once again, early maps show knowledge, however imperfectly presented, of geography that the history books tell us they didn't yet know about. Fascinated by the graphic distinctions, at least in the N.American segment, between intrusive embayments, and outflowing rivers, and similarities to Gerritz, inter alia. Carl Schuster _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: giorgio mangani Subject: [MapHist] Matto Ricci map Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:24:17 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl If you are interested in Matteo Ricci's World Map I inform it has been published in 2003 the catalog book by Filippo Mignini, ed, Padre Matteo Ricci. L'Europa alla corte dei Ming, (exhibition in Macerata, Italy, 2003), Milano, Mazzotta, 2003. In this book I published an essay about "Misurare, calcolare, pregare. Il mappamondo ricciano come strumento meditativo" (pp. 29-39) dedicated to the employment of this world map as a persuasive medium. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: cobb@pop.fas.harvard.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:04:02 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: David Cobb Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Maura -

It sounds like a very interesting conference - I'm just sorry it is on the other side of the world! Hopefully, there will be some proceedings?

David


The National Library of Australia is hosting an International conference on web archiving this coming November.  Preliminary information about the conference is at the following website: http://www.nla.gov.au/webarchiving/index.html
Yours sincerely
Maura O'Connor
Map Curator
National Library of Australia
Canberra  ACT  2600
Phone : 61 2 6262 1280
Fax: 61 2 6161 1653
Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au

***************************************************************************
David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417
Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440
Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu
Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps
************************** VERITAS ****************************************
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Matto Ricci map Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:34:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl

And here is the 'informative' entry for the 'Imago Mundi Bibliography', 2005, vol. 57(1).  Please note that, apart from the presence (and precise location) of any bibliography or other references, the ISBN is always included whenever it is determinable:-

 

Misurare, calcolare, pregare :  il mappamondo ricciano come strumento meditativo [ = To measure, to calculate, to pray : the Ricci world map as meditative instrument] / Giorgio Mangani. - In Padre Matteo Ricci : l'Europa alla corte dei Ming / a cura di Filippo Mignini. - Milano : Mazzotta, 2003. - p.29-39 :  ill., maps ; 27 cm. - Notes & refs: p.38-39. - "Le riflessioni di questo test fanno parte di una più ampia ricerca in corso sulla 'Cartografia morale', avviata nel 2001 come Fellow for the History of Cartography presso la Newberry Library di Chicago". - One of the essays included in catalogue of exhibition held in Auditorium, Palazzo Ricci, Macerata, 19.7. - 5.10.2003. - Catalogue of 163 items also includes col. ill., col. maps (including MSS attrib. to M. Ruggeri), & col. portr. ; bibliogr. : p.155-157) ; and chronology ('Notizie biografiche'): p.154. - ISBN 88-202-1637-X

 

Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; Compiler, since 1976, of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography')

f.herbert@rgs.org ; http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections'];  http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html

 

-----Original Message-----

From: giorgio mangani [mailto:giorgio.mangani@virgilio.it]

Sent: 21 July 2004 13:24

To: maphist@geog.uu.nl

Subject: [MapHist] Matto Ricci map

 

If you are interested in Matteo Ricci's World Map I inform it has been

published in 2003 the catalog book by Filippo Mignini, ed, Padre Matteo

Ricci. L'Europa alla corte dei Ming, (exhibition in Macerata, Italy,

2003), Milano, Mazzotta, 2003. In this book I published an essay about

"Misurare, calcolare, pregare. Il mappamondo ricciano come strumento

meditativo" (pp. 29-39) dedicated to the employment of this world map

as a persuasive medium.

 

_______________________________________________________________

MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography

hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.

The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of

the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of

Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for

the views of the author.

List Information: http://www.maphist.info

X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 70 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:47:29 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 02:05 PM 7/16/2004, you wrote:
I hope these materials will encourage some of you to delve more deeply into this subject.


There is also a Handbook for Digital Projects online at the Northeast Document Conservation Centrer: <http://www.nedcc.org/digital/tofc.htm#TofC>.

        Joel Kovarsky

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:39:53 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Thread-Index: AcRvI6QaqdX/QSTWQyWgY7BXWpepTgAT+/0g From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Message
David
I don't know but will enquire and let you know.  Thank you very much for your interest
Maura
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of David Cobb
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July 2004 11:04 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information


Maura -

It sounds like a very interesting conference - I'm just sorry it is on the other side of the world! Hopefully, there will be some proceedings?

David


The National Library of Australia is hosting an International conference on web archiving this coming November.  Preliminary information about the conference is at the following website: http://www.nla.gov.au/webarchiving/index.html
Yours sincerely
Maura O'Connor
Map Curator
National Library of Australia
Canberra  ACT  2600
Phone : 61 2 6262 1280
Fax: 61 2 6161 1653
Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au

***************************************************************************
David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417
Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440
Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu
Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps
************************** VERITAS ****************************************

X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 79 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:12:59 -0400 From: overlee User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: distcovery@listserver.tue.nl, maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [141.154.183.134] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:10:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I wasted two hours of my life last night watching the PBS program because I did not want to be accused of criticizing Menzies without having read the book or seeing the program. What I saw was ahistorical, anti-historical, ageographical, and anti-geographical. This work would never have passed muster as a dissertation. Martin Torodash, Ph.D., F.R.G.S. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:50:01 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Martin (and 'MapHist' subscribers in USA who also watched): Are your referring specifically to the PBS tv program or to Menzies' book - or both? In fact, forget the book: what about the tv program? Francis -----Original Message----- From: overlee [mailto:overlee@verizon.net] Sent: 22 July 2004 19:13 To: distcovery@listserver.tue.nl; maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 I wasted two hours of my life last night watching the PBS program because I did not want to be accused of criticizing Menzies without having read the book or seeing the program. What I saw was ahistorical, anti-historical, ageographical, and anti-geographical. This work would never have passed muster as a dissertation. Martin Torodash, Ph.D., F.R.G.S. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:15:41 -0400 From: overlee User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [151.203.155.29] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:13:24 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Francis: The TV program was a costume saga with a musical background reminiscent of Hollywood productions of the 1930s. Menzies appeared on camera offering his theories, suppositions, guesses, and his historical methodology can be summed up as: if this had happened, then this would have been the result. The map was a modern depiction of Cheng Ho's supposed route but was printed on "antiqued" paper. As I said, I wasted two hours. Martin F.Herbert@RGS.org wrote: >Martin (and 'MapHist' subscribers in USA who also watched): > >Are your referring specifically to the PBS tv program or to Menzies' book - >or both? In fact, forget the book: what about the tv program? > >Francis > >-----Original Message----- >From: overlee [mailto:overlee@verizon.net] >Sent: 22 July 2004 19:13 >To: distcovery@listserver.tue.nl; maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 > >I wasted two hours of my life last night watching the PBS program >because I did not want to be accused of criticizing Menzies without >having read the book or seeing the program. What I saw was ahistorical, >anti-historical, ageographical, and anti-geographical. This work would >never have passed muster as a dissertation. Martin Torodash, Ph.D., >F.R.G.S. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Harold Cramer" To: Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:21:06 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [68.162.180.213] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:19:50 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Hello: I am a little surprised at the negative reaction of some to Menzies' work. He seems to have broadened (or advertised?) an entire field of Chinese cartography and exploration previously not even thought about much by insular westerners like me. I consider that a service and probably the reason for the TV series. After all, Sir John Mandeville's writings are now a sort of minor classic. And I can remember when discussion of the Vikings in America was dismissed as nonsense, until an actual settlement was found in Newfoundland. The field Menzies covers seems ripe for research by qualified people, of which there seem to be very few due to the language, lack of access to Chinese records, and lack of archeological awareness in most of the world. Perhaps the Chinese did not get past the Indian Ocean and the island of Japan, but we do not seem to know for sure. Yours truly, Harold Cramer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:39:08 -0400 From: "John W. Hessler" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl The writing of history is based on evidence and not on speculation---there are a great many cartographic historians working in the field of chinese cartography whose writngs and theories do have basis in factual and documentary evidence. The fact that this particular work was chosen not only for publication but for "educational" broadcast does a disservce those those historians laborng in the field and shows history as specticle. Menzies work is based on no evidence documentary or otherwise that would lead him to the conclusions he has drawn---academic hstorians do consider it foolhardy and it should be religated like the Vinland Map, to the dustbin of history. John W. Hessler Cartographic Preservationist Geography and Map Division Library of Congress Washington DC 202-707-7223 jhes@loc.goc >>> cramerhj@bellatlantic.net 7/23/2004 9:21:06 AM >>> Hello: I am a little surprised at the negative reaction of some to Menzies' work. He seems to have broadened (or advertised?) an entire field of Chinese cartography and exploration previously not even thought about much by insular westerners like me. I consider that a service and probably the reason for the TV series. After all, Sir John Mandeville's writings are now a sort of minor classic. And I can remember when discussion of the Vikings in America was dismissed as nonsense, until an actual settlement was found in Newfoundland. The field Menzies covers seems ripe for research by qualified people, of which there seem to be very few due to the language, lack of access to Chinese records, and lack of archeological awareness in most of the world. Perhaps the Chinese did not get past the Indian Ocean and the island of Japan, but we do not seem to know for sure. Yours truly, Harold Cramer _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: day@pop.theworld.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:21:25 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: John Day Subject: [MapHist] Map-Making for Diplomats X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Or perhaps Carto-political engineering. There was a review in yesterday's (22 Jun) Wall Street Journal of Churchill's Folly by Christopher Catherwood. The book is about re-drawing the map of the Middle East after WWI, primarily Iraq that might be of interest to map-histers. The usual cast of characters: Feisal, T.E. Lawrence, Gertrude Bell, etc. Although it is the geo-political issues that are probably foremost in the book, its affects on the cartography were significant. There have been other books on this topic recently. Or given how bad my memory is lately it may have been this book and the WSJ is just tardy in getting around to reviewing it. ;-) Take care, John _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:38:13 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 09:39 AM 07/23/04 -0400, you wrote: >. . . Menzies work is based on no evidence documentary >or otherwise that would lead him to the conclusions he has >drawn---academic hstorians do consider it foolhardy and it should be >religated like the Vinland Map, to the dustbin of history. Hey, wait a minute now! Jim Enterline _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:09 -0400 From: jsk@gamewood.net Subject: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I have a question re: the following book: Cartographic Materials: A Manual of Interpretation for AACR2, 2002 Revision, Second Edition Would this be a generally useful reference book for serious collectors and/or dealers, not just librarians? (Don't take offense at the 'not just librarians' phrase, please.) Thanks in advance for any advice and/or opinions. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:00:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Rosenwasser Subject: Re: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Yes and no in that order. Yes for the collector since it will concentrate his mind on the "bibliographic" aspects of the map and represent the map as the cartorgraphic object that it is. No, for the dealer since it is his job to persuade, gently or forcefully, that the cartographic object for sale is worth the price quoted, and knowing AACR2 could be a bit of a drag on presenting the c.o. in its best light. JMR --- jsk@gamewood.net wrote: > I have a question re: the following book: > > Cartographic Materials: A Manual of Interpretation > for AACR2, 2002 Revision, Second Edition > > Would this be a generally useful reference book for > serious collectors and/or dealers, not just > librarians? (Don't take offense at the 'not just > librarians' phrase, please.) > > Thanks in advance for any advice and/or opinions. > > Joel Kovarsky > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of > cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, > University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this > message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of > the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any > responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:29:32 +0100 From: Zur Shalev User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Map coloring query X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear MapHisters, I post a question from H-Albion. If you can help, please contact Joetta Harty . In fact, I would be interested to learn more about this myself, so please post your replies to the list as well. Many thanks. Best wishes, Zur Shalev ++++++ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:45:19 -0400 From: Joetta Harty Subject: Colored Maps Query Re-reading Heart of Darkness recently, I was struck (again) by Conrad's reference to the rainbow-colored map in the Belgium company office, where the various geographical "possessions" are represented by red, blue, yellow, etc. Does anyone know where I might find an account of when this practice started and why red represented Britain, etc.? Joetta Harty ++++++ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Ed Dahl" To: "MAPHIST (to post)" Cc: Subject: [MapHist] Map coloring Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:41:43 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040625, clamav-milter version 0.73c on mailbox1.avalonworks.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Zur Shalev and Joetta Harty -- A few suggestions for you to pursue:
 
1.  Tony Campbell in the Geographical Magazine, vol. L, no. 8 (May 1978)
on the reason for pink to show the British Empire. 
 
2.  The Library of Congress "Bibliography of Cartography"
 
3.  The published "Imago Mundi" index (and the one now on the web?)
 
 
4.  Wallis and Robinson -- "Cartographical Innovations"
 
            Pedley, Mary Sponberg.
            Eighteenth-Century Experiments in Color Printing
 
6.  Chap. 4 of Woodward, ed., "Art and Cartography"
 
7.  T. Cook in Cartographica, vol. 21, no. 4 (winter 1984), 53-65
 
8.  "couleurs" in Dainville, "Le language des géographes"
 
9.  Work by Ingrid Kretschmer on colour lithography
 
10.  Cook, Karen Severud. "From False Starts to Firm
        Beginnings: Early Color Printing of Geological Maps."
        Imago mundi, 47 (1995), 155-72
 
11.  "Liber Amicorum ... in Honour of Albert Ganado" (third
         essay, by Stanley Fiorini)
 
All the best.
 
Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau, Québec  J8R 3K5, CANADA
     TEL: (819) 561-4029   FAX: (819) 561-7753
     
edahl@iosphere.net
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zur Shalev" <zshalev@Princeton.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: [MapHist] Map coloring query

Dear MapHisters,
I post a question from H-Albion. If you can help, please contact Joetta
Harty <
joetta@gwu.edu>. In fact, I would be interested to learn more
about this myself, so please post your replies to the list as well. Many
thanks.  Best wishes, Zur Shalev

++++++
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:45:19 -0400
From: Joetta Harty <
joetta@gwu.edu>
Subject: Colored Maps Query

Re-reading Heart of Darkness recently, I was struck (again) by
Conrad's reference to the rainbow-colored map in the Belgium company
office, where the various geographical "possessions" are represented
by red, blue, yellow, etc. Does anyone know where I might find an
account of when this practice started and why red represented
Britain, etc.?  Joetta Harty
++++++
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:55:37 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl The first hour was primarily an exposition of Cheng He's voyages heavily spiced with Menzies speculations. But in the second hour, the producers looked closely at Menzies' theory, interviewed a number of skeptics, and then put some tough questions to Menzies in an interview. Menzies squirmed throughout this interview and seemed to be over his head, in spite of his bravado and bluster. I think anyone watching would come away with the distinct impression that there is much less to Menzies, and his theory, than meets the eye. PBS and Penguin Television have earned my kudos. Keith Pickering ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:50 AM Subject: RE: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 > Martin (and 'MapHist' subscribers in USA who also watched): > > Are your referring specifically to the PBS tv program or to Menzies' book - > or both? In fact, forget the book: what about the tv program? > > Francis > > -----Original Message----- > From: overlee [mailto:overlee@verizon.net] > Sent: 22 July 2004 19:13 > To: distcovery@listserver.tue.nl; maphist@geog.uu.nl > Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 > > I wasted two hours of my life last night watching the PBS program > because I did not want to be accused of criticizing Menzies without > having read the book or seeing the program. What I saw was ahistorical, > anti-historical, ageographical, and anti-geographical. This work would > never have passed muster as a dissertation. Martin Torodash, Ph.D., > F.R.G.S. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:35:43 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: James Enterline Subject: RE: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Today I had an opportunity to watch the re-broadcast of the PBS mini-series on Menzies. The first hour was quite worthwhile in publicizing the less than widely known, but scholarly accepted history of Cheng Ho's activities. Its few scenes involving Menzies's specific theories were sufficiently discrete that an open-minded viewer could separate accepted history from surmise. One such scene involved Carol Urness being interviewed in connection with the mystery islands on the Pizzagano chart held at the James Ford Bell Library, which Menzies claims represent Guadeloupe and Puerto Rico. Carol granted that Menzies "has a good case" in this respect. In the second hour, the program concentrated on skeptics of Menzies's case, and there Carol was shown to concede that the rotations and transpositions required by this Caribbean interpretation weakened it. Carol (and anyone else who still thinks Menzies has a good case with Pizzagano), have you read Bob Fuson's _Legendary Island of the Ocean Sea_ (Pineapple Press, 1995)? Fuson makes what I consider at least as good a case that those islands represent Formosa (Taiwan) and Japan, evidence which Menzies has apparently not considered. Menzies is a very intelligent and energetic guy, but my impression is that he will be remembered in the long run more as a colorful figure than as a scholarly revolutionary. Jim Enterline At 08:50 AM 07/23/04 +0100, Frances Herbert wrote: >Martin (and 'MapHist' subscribers in USA who also watched): > >Are your referring specifically to the PBS tv program or to Menzies' book - >or both? In fact, forget the book: what about the tv program? > >Francis > >-----Original Message----- >From: overlee [mailto:overlee@verizon.net] >Sent: 22 July 2004 19:13 >To: distcovery@listserver.tue.nl; maphist@geog.uu.nl >Subject: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 > >I wasted two hours of my life last night watching the PBS program >because I did not want to be accused of criticizing Menzies without >having read the book or seeing the program. What I saw was ahistorical, >anti-historical, ageographical, and anti-geographical. This work would >never have passed muster as a dissertation. Martin Torodash, Ph.D., >F.R.G.S. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: np003a5704@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:36:26 +0100 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Nick Pelling Subject: Re: [MapHist] Menzies, 1421 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2004 20:36:47.0096 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AEABF80:01C47287] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl At 12:38 23/07/2004 -0400, James Enterline wrote: >At 09:39 AM 07/23/04 -0400, John W. Hessler wrote: >>. . . Menzies work is based on no evidence documentary >>or otherwise that would lead him to the conclusions he has >>drawn---academic hstorians do consider it foolhardy and it should be >>religated like the Vinland Map, to the dustbin of history. > >Hey, wait a minute now! Don't worry Jim, it's just a fashion thing. One good paper and the VM will be academically hip once again - all you have to do is write that paper. :-) That which one generation considers infra dig often forms the core challenge for the next! Cheers, .....Nick Pelling..... _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:05:50 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information Thread-Index: AcRvI6QaqdX/QSTWQyWgY7BXWpepTgEUfWXA From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Message
Dear David
I have been advised that papers that are made available for publication will be published on the website following the conference.  Not all presenters will provide papers.  The Library does not intend to do a printed copy of the proceedings.
Regards
Maura
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of David Cobb
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July 2004 11:04 PM
To: maphist@geog.uu.nl
Subject: RE: [MapHist] Digital Preservation Information


Maura -

It sounds like a very interesting conference - I'm just sorry it is on the other side of the world! Hopefully, there will be some proceedings?

David


The National Library of Australia is hosting an International conference on web archiving this coming November.  Preliminary information about the conference is at the following website: http://www.nla.gov.au/webarchiving/index.html
Yours sincerely
Maura O'Connor
Map Curator
National Library of Australia
Canberra  ACT  2600
Phone : 61 2 6262 1280
Fax: 61 2 6161 1653
Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au

***************************************************************************
David A. Cobb                                   Tel. 617.495.2417
Harvard Map Collection                          FAX  617.496.0440
Harvard College Library                         Email: cobb@fas.harvard.edu
Cambridge, MA 02138                             HTTP://hcl.harvard.edu/maps
************************** VERITAS ****************************************

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:53:41 -0400 From: Ottomantom@cs.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Maps and Color X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 68.163.46.105 X-AOL-Language: english X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Recently there was an inquiry sources considering maps and color. Perhaps I missed the responses but there is the wonderful exhibition catalogue, COLEURS DE LA TERRE edited by Monique Pelletier (1998). Tom Goodrich _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "C.Delano-Smith" To: "Maphist" Subject: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:08:06 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Sender-Host-Address: 81.152.131.123 X-QM-Scan-Virus: virusscan says the message is clean X-QM-Scan-Virus: ClamAV says the message is clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear MapHisters, Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right direction to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour printing for maps on fabrics, specifically LINEN (late 19th century)? Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is blue 'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...? I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher. Many thanks Catherine Dr Catherine Delano-Smith Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of Cartography 285 Nether Street London N3 1PD U.K. For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at < http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all matters relating to subscriptions and > sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see . _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: seaver@seaver.pobox.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:56:17 -0700 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear Catherine and other MapHisters, Others on the list will know far more than I about the technology and chemistry that comes into play here, but I thought I'd note a couple of variables that might need consideration. The first is the intended use of any map to be printed on linen. Was it to be folded and used out in the field, or was it intended for a sedentary life on someone's wall? In the former instance, the flexibility/ brittleness of the printing ink would be a major concern. The second variable would be the map's likely exposure to light, especially to direct sunlight. According to pp. 144-45 of THE ARTIST'S HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES (by Ralph Mayer / updated by Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, 5th ed., 1991), there was a sea change around 1900 in the expected permanence of many pigments. From p. 144: "In the early twentieth century, pigments of greatly improved light resistance began to appear on the market and were adopted by makers of decorative paints, printing inks, and other industrial products." Best regards, Kirsten A. Seaver >Dear MapHisters, > >Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right direction >to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour printing for >maps on fabrics, specifically LINEN (late 19th century)? > Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as >opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is blue >'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...? >I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher. >Many thanks >Catherine > > > >Dr Catherine Delano-Smith >Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research >Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of Cartography >285 Nether Street >London N3 1PD >U.K. > >For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at >< http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all >matters relating to subscriptions and >> sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see >. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info -- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.0.7.9 (Windows) From: "Judith Tyner" To: maphist@geog.uu.nl, "Paul S. Seaver" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:23:50 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Yes, the intended use is important. In the late 18th century maps were printed on silk for young women to embroider and into the 19th and 20th century maps were printed on other fabrics to be used as handkerchiefs, bandanas, and souvenirs. These all are different from maps to be used in the field, e.g. escape maps of WWII. Spilsbury is usually credited as first to print maps on fabric--he printed maps on silk as handkerchiefs. Later, Laurie and Whittle and Carver and Bowles printed needlework map patterns. It would help to know what the young researcher's topic is. Judith Tyner > [Original Message] > From: Paul S. Seaver > To: > Date: 7/27/2004 11:56:17 AM > Subject: Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen > > Dear Catherine and other MapHisters, > > Others on the list will know far more than I about the technology and > chemistry that comes into play here, but I thought I'd note a couple > of variables that might need consideration. > > The first is the intended use of any map to be printed on linen. Was > it to be folded and used out in the field, or was it intended for a > sedentary life on someone's wall? In the former instance, the > flexibility/ brittleness of the printing ink would be a major concern. > > The second variable would be the map's likely exposure to light, > especially to direct sunlight. According to pp. 144-45 of THE > ARTIST'S HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES (by Ralph Mayer / > updated by Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, 5th ed., 1991), there was a > sea change around 1900 in the expected permanence of many pigments. > From p. 144: "In the early twentieth century, pigments of greatly > improved light resistance began to appear on the market and were > adopted by makers of decorative paints, printing inks, and other > industrial products." > > Best regards, > > Kirsten A. Seaver > > >Dear MapHisters, > > > >Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right direction > >to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour printing for > >maps on fabrics, specifically LINEN (late 19th century)? > > Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as > >opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is blue > >'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...? > >I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher. > >Many thanks > >Catherine > > > > > > > >Dr Catherine Delano-Smith > >Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research > >Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of Cartography > >285 Nether Street > >London N3 1PD > >U.K. > > > >For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at > >< http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all > >matters relating to subscriptions and > >> sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see > >. > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > >the views of the author. > >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > -- > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info --- Judith Tyner --- jztyner@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Jens Bornholt" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:19:00 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I notice that the work mentioned by JMR costs $ 100.00, is this a worthwhile expense for map collectors/curators? Jens P.Bornholt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Rosenwasser" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing > Yes and no in that order. Yes for the collector since > it will concentrate his mind on the "bibliographic" > aspects of the map and represent the map as the > cartorgraphic object that it is. No, for the dealer > since it is his job to persuade, gently or forcefully, > that the cartographic object for sale is worth the > price quoted, and knowing AACR2 could be a bit of a > drag on presenting the c.o. in its best light. > > JMR > > --- jsk@gamewood.net wrote: > > I have a question re: the following book: > > > > Cartographic Materials: A Manual of Interpretation > > for AACR2, 2002 Revision, Second Edition > > > > Would this be a generally useful reference book for > > serious collectors and/or dealers, not just > > librarians? (Don't take offense at the 'not just > > librarians' phrase, please.) > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice and/or opinions. > > > > Joel Kovarsky > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of > > cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, > > University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this > > message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of > > the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any > > responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 116 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:24:18 +1000 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing Thread-Index: AcR0MIeoNtTDBLG+STiEk82WuFBL1wAABI5w From: "Maura O'Connor" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear Jens If you are managing a map collection and/or cataloguing then this work is vital. I have used it for the past 25 years and also contributed to the Australian comment for both editions. We apply it daily to our map collection! Yours sincerely Maura O'Connor Map Curator National Library of Australia Canberra ACT 2600 Phone : 61 2 6262 1280 Fax: 61 2 6161 1653 Email : moconnor@nla.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Jens Bornholt Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2004 9:19 AM To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing I notice that the work mentioned by JMR costs $ 100.00, is this a worthwhile expense for map collectors/curators? Jens P.Bornholt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Rosenwasser" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] query re: reference book on map cataloguing > Yes and no in that order. Yes for the collector since > it will concentrate his mind on the "bibliographic" > aspects of the map and represent the map as the > cartorgraphic object that it is. No, for the dealer > since it is his job to persuade, gently or forcefully, > that the cartographic object for sale is worth the > price quoted, and knowing AACR2 could be a bit of a > drag on presenting the c.o. in its best light. > > JMR > > --- jsk@gamewood.net wrote: > > I have a question re: the following book: > > > > Cartographic Materials: A Manual of Interpretation > > for AACR2, 2002 Revision, Second Edition > > > > Would this be a generally useful reference book for > > serious collectors and/or dealers, not just > > librarians? (Don't take offense at the 'not just > > librarians' phrase, please.) > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice and/or opinions. > > > > Joel Kovarsky > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of > > cartography > > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, > > University of Utrecht. > > The statements and opinions expressed in this > > message are those of > > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of > > the University of > > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any > > responsibility for > > the views of the author. > > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:00:34 -0500 From: John & Jill Rado User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Exhibition in Seoul. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Henny, To whom is the intended recipient? John who? John R. Cloth Map Collector and Researcher http://www.silkmaps.com Henny Savenije wrote: > Sorry to bother the rest of the list. > > John it seems I can't send email to your personally, it gets bounced > with a weird message. Anyhow, the exhibition is in The Seoul History > Museum. > > Sincerely > > > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > ----------------------------- > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr Portal to all my sites > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Feel free > to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/indexk2.htm In Korean > http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/Dutch In Dutch > http://www.vos.henny-savenije.pe.kr Frits Vos Article about Witsen > and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary > http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr (in English) Korea through > Western Cartographic eyes > http://www.hwasong.henny-savenije.pe.kr Hwasong the fortress in Suwon > http://www.oldKorea.henny-savenije.pe.kr Old Korea in pictures > http://www.british.henny-savenije.pe.kr A British encounter in Pusan > (1797) > http://www.genealogy.henny-savenije.pe.kr Genealogy > http://www.henny-savenije.pe.kr/bboard Bulletin board for Korean studies > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography > hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of > the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of > Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for > the views of the author. > List Information: http://www.maphist.info > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-McAfeeVS-TimeoutProtection: 117 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: docktor@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:06:03 -0400 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "John W. Docktor" Subject: Re: [MapHist] Exhibition in Seoul. X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl John R. The message was meant for me, and Mr. Savenije's e-mail difficulties were fixed. John Docktor At 07:00 PM 7/27/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Henny, > To whom is the intended recipient? John who? >John R. >Cloth Map Collector and Researcher >http://www.silkmaps.com > >Henny Savenije wrote: > >>Sorry to bother the rest of the list. >> >>John it seems I can't send email to your personally, it gets bounced with >>a weird message. Anyhow, the exhibition is in The Seoul History Museum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John W. Docktor Phone: 717-846-8997 Fax: 717-845-9337 Cartography - Calendars of Events & Exhibitions: http://www.docktor.com/ Washington Map Society: http://www.washmap.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:11:14 -0500 From: John & Jill Rado User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear Catherine and other MapHist'ers, I am a dedicated cloth map collector and researcher. I have been collecting both civilian and military cloth maps from the late 1800's to the 1990's. I have amassed a great amount of lithographic information and resources in the 13 yrs of collecting. Should you have specific questions, you can reach me through my website (which has only a small amount of historical references listed - far more exist): http://www.silkmaps.com John Paul S. Seaver wrote: > Dear Catherine and other MapHisters, > > Others on the list will know far more than I about the technology and > chemistry that comes into play here, but I thought I'd note a couple > of variables that might need consideration. > > The first is the intended use of any map to be printed on linen. Was > it to be folded and used out in the field, or was it intended for a > sedentary life on someone's wall? In the former instance, the > flexibility/ brittleness of the printing ink would be a major concern. > > The second variable would be the map's likely exposure to light, > especially to direct sunlight. According to pp. 144-45 of THE ARTIST'S > HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES (by Ralph Mayer / updated by > Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, 5th ed., 1991), there was a sea change > around 1900 in the expected permanence of many pigments. From p. 144: > "In the early twentieth century, pigments of greatly improved light > resistance began to appear on the market and were adopted by makers > of decorative paints, printing inks, and other industrial products." > > Best regards, > > Kirsten A. Seaver > >> Dear MapHisters, >> >> Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right >> direction >> to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour >> printing for >> maps on fabrics, specifically LINEN (late 19th century)? >> Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as >> opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is >> blue >> 'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...? >> I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher. >> Many thanks >> Catherine >> >> >> >> Dr Catherine Delano-Smith >> Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research >> Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of >> Cartography >> 285 Nether Street >> London N3 1PD >> U.K. >> >> For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at >> < http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all >> matters relating to subscriptions and >> >>> sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see >> >> . >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Route nostalgie" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:40:46 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-AntiVirus: checked by Vexira Milter 1.0.7; VAE 6.26.0.10; VDF 6.26.0.48 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl I like wonderfull your web site on the Silk maps. It's a interesting work of collecting. I have 2 WWII silk maps in my collection http://oldmaps.free.fr/livre/mecamaps03.htm also in this web page on back the maps in the military jacket is a current reproduction, by Avirex Copy Right 1985. Cordialement, Pascal Pannetier (France) Magazine Route Nostalgie Association Auto Mobilier Collections routenostalgie@free.fr http://oldmaps.free.fr http://routenostalgie.free.fr http://automobi.free.fr http://memoireenroute.free.fr -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]De la part de John & Jill Rado Envoyé : mercredi 28 juillet 2004 02:11 À : maphist@geog.uu.nl Objet : Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen Dear Catherine and other MapHist'ers, I am a dedicated cloth map collector and researcher. I have been collecting both civilian and military cloth maps from the late 1800's to the 1990's. I have amassed a great amount of lithographic information and resources in the 13 yrs of collecting. Should you have specific questions, you can reach me through my website (which has only a small amount of historical references listed - far more exist): http://www.silkmaps.com John Paul S. Seaver wrote: > Dear Catherine and other MapHisters, > > Others on the list will know far more than I about the technology and > chemistry that comes into play here, but I thought I'd note a couple > of variables that might need consideration. > > The first is the intended use of any map to be printed on linen. Was > it to be folded and used out in the field, or was it intended for a > sedentary life on someone's wall? In the former instance, the > flexibility/ brittleness of the printing ink would be a major concern. > > The second variable would be the map's likely exposure to light, > especially to direct sunlight. According to pp. 144-45 of THE ARTIST'S > HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES (by Ralph Mayer / updated by > Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, 5th ed., 1991), there was a sea change > around 1900 in the expected permanence of many pigments. From p. 144: > "In the early twentieth century, pigments of greatly improved light > resistance began to appear on the market and were adopted by makers > of decorative paints, printing inks, and other industrial products." > > Best regards, > > Kirsten A. Seaver > >> Dear MapHisters, >> >> Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right >> direction >> to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour >> printing for >> maps on fabrics, specifically LINEN (late 19th century)? >> Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as >> opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is >> blue >> 'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...? >> I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher. >> Many thanks >> Catherine >> >> >> >> Dr Catherine Delano-Smith >> Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research >> Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of >> Cartography >> 285 Nether Street >> London N3 1PD >> U.K. >> >> For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at >> < http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all >> matters relating to subscriptions and >> >>> sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see >> >> . >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >> hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >> the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >> Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >> the views of the author. >> List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: F.Herbert@RGS.org To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: RE: [MapHist] Maps and Color Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:51:28 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl For more details of which see, e.g., 'Imago Mundi', 1999, vol.51, 'Bibliography' entry no. 99:51(214); and also entry no. 00:52(262) in 'IM', 2000, vol.52, for listing of the papers of a colloquium on the same subject held in BnF on 27.11.1998. Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG; Compiler, since 1976, of 'Imago Mundi Bibliography') f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org [see 'Collections']; http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html -----Original Message----- From: Ottomantom@cs.com [mailto:Ottomantom@cs.com] Sent: 27 July 2004 03:54 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Maps and Color Recently there was an inquiry sources considering maps and color. Perhaps I missed the responses but there is the wonderful exhibition catalogue, COLEURS DE LA TERRE edited by Monique Pelletier (1998). Tom Goodrich _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "S & L" To: Subject: [MapHist] Banat on maps Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:35:45 +0300 Organization: Sorin & Laura M. Fortiu X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear List; Please allow introducing myself; I am a researcher and I live in Romania/ie Timisoara Town in a region named BANAT [Some Basic Info on Banat are to be found at http://www.genealogy.ro/cont/1.htm] in the SW part of today Romania. The historical Banat was almost a perfect square of 28.526 km2 in the central SE of Europe and had the following natural boundaries: -at N the Mures / Maros / Mieresch River; -at E the foothills of the Carpati Mountains / Transylvanian Alps; -at S the Dunarea / Danube / Donau River; -and at W the Tisa / Tisza / Theiss / Theiß River. I am working to a book regarding the meaning of ban_Banat [ie ban as ruler of an Banat] from our days until the ancient history of the region and I have huge problems with accessing the foreign needed bibliography. One of the problems not solved yet by the historiography is the name of BANAT. We do not know yet WHY, HOW and by WHOM this region was named this way. At the end of the XVII century [~1680’s] the syntagm of "BANATUS TIMISVARIENSIS PARS" is used for a region which, until then, was never named in this way during the history. This is why I am very interested how was this region named in the maps done during the period 1685-1695. First of all, I am interested how is named the region on Danube’s map done in 1689 in Venice by Vincenzo Maria Coronelli [* 15/16.08.1650, Venice; † 9.12.1718, Venice]: “Corso Del Danubio Da Vienna Sin’A Nicopoli E Paesi Adiacenti ...” [six sheets each 61.5 x 45.5 cms., copperplate, uncoloured]. Then I would need badly some help in finding Giacomo Giovanni Rossi’s map done in Rome in 1683: “Gesamtansichten von Temesvar in Rumänien, Vac (Waitzen) in Ungarn, Filakovo (Filleck/Fülek) in der Slowakei u. Edirne (Adrianopol) in der Türkei” [Kst. aus Teatro della guerra contro il Turco, dove sono le piante, e le Vedute delle principali citta e ..., 39 x 52,5] and to see if on this map the region is named somehow. Any help would be great, Sorin Fortiu mbusines@banat.ro _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Rodney Shirley" To: Subject: Re: [MapHist] Banat on maps Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:27:26 +0100 Organization: UUNET X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl To Sorin Fortiu et al It so happens that I have Coronelli's six-sheet map of the Danube mounted and hanging on a wall close to my desk. As you probably know, Coronelli provides many names of rivers, towns etc in various languages and also cites the dates of battles or sieges which have taken place, usually against the Turks. The boundaries which you mention are marked as follows: North: F.Marons; H.Merisch; A.Marusius; L.Marinus. [I suppose the F,H,A,L designations are French, Hungarian, Austrian, Latin] East: Monti d'Eisenthor. This is well south of where Transylvania is marked on the map. South: Danube [river] West: Tussa [or] Teissa [river]. Coronelli marks the main town Temeswar [Timinoara] and designates the whole area as 'Temeswar Comitatus'. The only other marking seems to be, in the southern part, 'Campo Maxon / Terra d'Halmas'. I am sorry that I could not find any mention of Banat on or close to this bounded area and hope you have better luck with other maps of the period. With regards Rodney Shirley rws@dial.pipex.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "S & L" To: Sent: 28 July 2004 10:35 Subject: [MapHist] Banat on maps > Dear List; > > Please allow introducing myself; I am a researcher and I live in Romania/ie > Timisoara Town in a region named BANAT [Some Basic Info on Banat are > to be found at http://www.genealogy.ro/cont/1.htm] in the SW part of today > Romania. > The historical Banat was almost a perfect square of 28.526 km2 in the > central SE of Europe and had the following natural boundaries: > -at N the Mures / Maros / Mieresch River; > -at E the foothills of the Carpati Mountains / Transylvanian Alps; > -at S the Dunarea / Danube / Donau River; > -and at W the Tisa / Tisza / Theiss / Theiß River. > > I am working to a book regarding the meaning of ban_Banat [ie ban as ruler > of an Banat] from our days until the ancient history of the region and I > have huge problems with accessing the foreign needed bibliography. > > One of the problems not solved yet by the historiography is the name of > BANAT. We do not know yet WHY, HOW and by WHOM this region was named this > way. At the end of the XVII century [~1680’s] the syntagm of "BANATUS > TIMISVARIENSIS PARS" is used for a region which, until then, was never named > in this way during the history. > > This is why I am very interested how was this region named in the maps done > during the period 1685-1695. > > First of all, I am interested how is named the region on Danube’s map done > in 1689 in Venice by Vincenzo Maria Coronelli [* 15/16.08.1650, Venice; † > 9.12.1718, Venice]: “Corso Del Danubio Da Vienna Sin’A Nicopoli E Paesi > Adiacenti ...” [six sheets each 61.5 x 45.5 cms., copperplate, uncoloured]. > > Then I would need badly some help in finding Giacomo Giovanni Rossi’ s map > done in Rome in 1683: “Gesamtansichten von Temesvar in Rumänien, Vac > (Waitzen) in Ungarn, Filakovo (Filleck/Fülek) in der Slowakei u. Edirne > (Adrianopol) in der Türkei” [Kst. aus Teatro della guerra contro il Turco, > dove sono le piante, e le Vedute delle principali citta e ..., 39 x 52,5] > and to see if on this map the region is named somehow. > > Any help would be great, > > Sorin Fortiu > mbusines@banat.ro _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:45:18 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: List-owner MapHist Subject: [MapHist] List-owner is back on his post! X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Dear all Just returned from my vacation in Devon and Cornwall - the only maps I saw were road maps and some awful reproductions on pseudo-old paper (dark brown) of Senex's county mapsin souvenir shops - I found 100 bounced maphist-messages because of the use of illegal words and non-subscribed addresses. I will sort these out this afternoon and redirect the serious messages to the list. (usually, 90% of these messages are spam). Peter van der Krogt List-owner MapHist List-info: http://www.maphist.nl _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:46:31 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] WWII map X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Illegal word: never start the subject line with "Help" ! From: "Matthew Champion" Subject: Help needed - WWII map Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:14:38 +0100 Dear All My mother recently gave me a map that she had acquired in France. It was discovered in the draw of an old dressing table she bought from a second hand shop in the Haute Marne. The map is black and white, shows the border between France and Germany (Baden Baden area) and the scale is shown as Allemagne 50.000 (amplification du 100.000). The key is in German - although it also contains phrases and sections in French. The last date shown on the map is "Tirage d'octobre 1944". The map is also covered in red pencil markings - some surrounding towns, others following the Rhine. As this is nowhere near my period I haven't got a clue. Any ideas? Many thanks Matthew Champion _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:48:35 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Non-member submission from [Robert Johnson ] Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:20:14 -0400 Subject: Nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean From: Robert Johnson Hello: On the advice of Professor David Woodward of the University of Wisconsin, I am sending this e-mail query in hopes of locating resources, i.e., libraries, archives, or other sources which may have information on early nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean. My overrriding goal is to identify the oldest nautical chart depicting the Pacific Island known variously as Marcus Island or Minami Tori Shima, located at approximately 24 degrees, 18 minutes North Latitude, 153 degrees, 58 minutes East Longitude. I have been informed that there are charts printed in the early 19th century by the English cartographer, E. & G.W. Blunt depicting Marcus Island/Minami Tori Shima. I am seeking the location of an archive or repository where I might obtain a copy of such a chart. And there may be other charts printed even earlier, perhaps Spanish, Dutch or English, and I would be interested in knowing where they may be stored. Any assistance you may provide will be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Robert H. Johnson, B.A., M.A. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:51:06 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: RE: [MapHist] Gavin Menzies and his maps X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Non-member submission from ["Gillian Hutchinson" ] (I redirect this to the list although the message is hardly readable. Probably the original is html-encoded. Peter) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:38:16 +0100 In=20his=20new=20book=20on=20The=20Seachart,=20on=20p15=20John=20Blake=20w= rites:=20'Gavin=20Menzies=20pervasively=20argues...'.=20=20How=20true=20th= ose=20words=20are!=20 However,=20the=20following=20text=20shows=20that=20this=20is=20a=20typo=20= for=20'persuasively'=20(rather=20than=20'perversely'). =20 Gillian=20Hutchinson NMM,=20Greenwich -----Original=20Message----- From:=20overlee=20[mailto:overlee@verizon.net] Sent:=2016=20July=202004=2022:54 To:=20maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject:=20Re:=20[MapHist]=20Gavin=20Menzies=20and=20his=20maps I=20don't=20think=20we=20can=20overestimate=20the=20mischief=20he=20is=20c= ausing---or=20the=20amount=20of=20free=20publicity=20we=20have=20been=20gi= ving=20him!=20=20So=20why=20don't=20we=20cease=20mentioning=20the=20man=20= and=20the=20book.=20=20Martin=20Torodash Doug=20Weller=20wrote: Hi, =20=20A=20new=20section=20has=20been=20launched=20on=20the=201421=20site: =20=20=20http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp?Section=3DPart+I+%2Ei= i+%2D+The+Discovery+of+the+World =20=20I=20don't=20think=20people=20should=20underestimate=20the=20mischief= =20he=20is=20causing. =20=20Doug _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:54:21 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] Colored maps query from H-Albion X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl [This message was too long (> 20,000 chars), because it was a reply on a digest-message. When you are subscribed to the digest version: never reply, or remove the quoted original message except for the message you are replying. Peter] From: Zur Shalev Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:11:23 +0100 Subject: Colored maps query from H-Albion Dear all, I post a question from H-Albion. If you can help, please contact Joetta Harty . In fact, I would be interested to learn more about the topic myself, so please post your replies to me (zshalev@princeton.edu) or to MapHist as well. Many thanks. Best wishes, Zur Shalev ++++++ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:45:19 -0400 From: Joetta Harty Subject: Colored Maps Query Re-reading Heart of Darkness recently, I was struck (again) by Conrad's reference to the rainbow-colored map in the Belgium company office, where the various geographical "possessions" are represented by red, blue, yellow, etc. Does anyone know where I might find an account of when this practice started and why red represented Britain, etc.? Joetta Harty ++++++ Zur Shalev _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:55:39 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] looking for John Hamer X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Non-member submission from [eedson ] Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:07:04 -0400 Dear List: My e-mail addresses no longer work for John Hamer. John, if you are out there, please get in touch with me about the Borgia map. Does anyone else know where he is now?? Thanks. Evelyn Edson Evelyn Edson, Professor of History Piedmont Virginia Community College 501 College Drive Charlottesville, VA 22902 (434) 961-5384 _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Sender: maphist15@mail.maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:57:11 +0200 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Subject: [MapHist] coloring imperial possessions on maps -- posting for non-MapHist member X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Non-member submission from ["Laura York" ] Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:45:15 +0000 Hello all, I'm forwarding this query from an English history listserv I belong to, in hopes one of the MapHist experts can provide a reference. Thanks. Laura York lor26@hotmail.com UCLA Department of History -------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:45:19 -0400 From: Joetta Harty Subject: Colored Maps Query Re-reading Heart of Darkness recently, I was struck (again) by Conrad's reference to the rainbow-colored map in the Belgium company office, where the various geographical "possessions" are represented by red, blue, yellow, etc. Does anyone know where I might find an account of when this practice started and why red represented Britain, etc.? Joetta Harty ----Original Message Follows---- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl (by way of List-owner MapHist ) Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Chatelain Atlas Historique / Zacharias Chatelain - Henri Abraham Chatelain Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:34:14 +0200 Non-member submission from [brink@geog.uu.nl] Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:50:54 +0200 (CEST) Roderick, According to the STCN "Short Title Catalogue of the Netherlands" (and by far the most reliable source for the book history of the Netherlands before 1800, Nicolas Gueudeville (1652-ca. 1721) and Henri Abraham Chatelain (1684-1743)were the authors responsible for the Atlas Historique. Using the STCN (you can consult the database by logging in to http://www.kb.nl/coop/bibliop/bibl-html/index_en.html Select the option "Books" and than "general search instruments" and you will be directed to the database (it has an English interface). It will enable you to find the most exact, though complicated information on the publishing activities of the firms of François l'Honore and the family Chatelain. Dr. Paul van den Brink Explokart Research Team University of Utrecht The Netherlands _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "Paul Hughes" To: Subject: RE: [MapHist] Nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:20:40 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Two places to start with, are the British Library and the United Kingdom Hydrographic Office http://www.hydro.gov.uk/ . The library's maps are in their online catalogue, or via COPAC; the HO's historical maps are best identified by correspondence - although a start can be made with their microfiched catalogues from about 1825. A way in, is with the name of the premier publisher of the period, William Faden 1749-1836. Paul Hughes -----Original Message----- From: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl] Sent: 29 July 2004 11:49 To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean Non-member submission from [Robert Johnson ] Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:20:14 -0400 Subject: Nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean From: Robert Johnson Hello: On the advice of Professor David Woodward of the University of Wisconsin, I am sending this e-mail query in hopes of locating resources, i.e., libraries, archives, or other sources which may have information on early nautical charts of the North/Central Pacific Ocean. My overrriding goal is to identify the oldest nautical chart depicting the Pacific Island known variously as Marcus Island or Minami Tori Shima, located at approximately 24 degrees, 18 minutes North Latitude, 153 degrees, 58 minutes East Longitude. I have been informed that there are charts printed in the early 19th century by the English cartographer, E. & G.W. Blunt depicting Marcus Island/Minami Tori Shima. I am seeking the location of an archive or repository where I might obtain a copy of such a chart. And there may be other charts printed even earlier, perhaps Spanish, Dutch or English, and I would be interested in knowing where they may be stored. Any assistance you may provide will be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Robert H. Johnson, B.A., M.A. _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Givat97@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:40:03 EDT Subject: Re: [MapHist] WWII map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 631 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
Matthew,
 
The maps sounds like a French enlargement of the standard German 1:100,000 sheet of the time, hence the German key, but with French text as well. It was probably produced for the French Army by the IGN after the liberation of Paris in July 1944 (as indicated by the date given). The French Army was active on the sector covered by the map during the liberation of the rest of France and the invasion of Germany. What is not clear is why the French Army were not using the maps produced for the American and British armies which covered the area, sheets drawn at 1:50,000, rather than having to enlarge a German 1:100,000 map. Probably it was just an assertion of French independence.
 
Peter Collier
 
 
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Atlas of Cyberspace Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:43:25 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl The site http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/atlas.html (if I keyboarded that correctly) has been updated. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: , Subject: [MapHist] Language map Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:03:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl This may already have been noted, but the site http://www.mla.org/census_map has maps of language distribution in the US. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:07:40 -0400 From: Strebe@aol.com To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Re: Language map X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 192.150.22.150 X-AOL-Language: english X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Bill, I suppose I'm surprised by your comments. The map clearly advertises itself as displaying the number of speakers of a given language per county. That is exactly what information some people want. If I intended to advertise my fruits to Laotians, that is the map I would consult. If I wanted to recruit Basque speakers for the FBI, that is the map I would consult. The map does not represent itself to be showing the number of speakers of such-and-such language per capita. If a reader were to interpret what 'he' saw to mean that, then he misunderstood a simple map. Furthermore, the map's population scale is more or less logarithmic in gradation, so it's not as if the map's granularity is somehow distorted into unusability by the dominance of Los Angeles county's population. Counties with only a small population of speakers are represented clearly; so are counties with medium populations; so are counties with enormous populations. I don't know how the map could be more clear. It's difficult to see how the map could be used deceptively. One can only go so far to accommodate ignorance. Regards, daan Strebe In a message dated 7/30/2004 6:49:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WJWarren@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 7/30/2004 3:00:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, >jbpost@netreach.net writes: >This may already have been noted, but the site >http://www.mla.org/census_map has maps of language distribution in the US. >This site makes another point for those interested in showing how maps can be >manipulated. Using the map of mainland US counties and clicking on any of the >languages cited you will note that one county always stands out as a high >concentration of speakers. That county is Los Angeles County in California. Why >is that? There is a simple explanation. The average county in the United States >has about 90,000 residents. Los Angeles County has 10,000,000 residents and >is therefore more than 100 times the size of the average. Even with a single >percentage of the population speaking an obscure language, it simply overwhelms >the averages, making that county stick out as a hot bed of speakers of that >language. Living in Los Angeles County, we see this wonderful distortion often. >We are told regularly that Los Angeles County is the "largest producer of >pollutants" or other undesirable things. We also have the highest number of left >handed Swedish fencers of any county, or any other obscure category you may >wish to dream up. >It reminds me sometimes of a friend from Anchorage, Alaska. He asked me if I >knew that the Ferrari Club of the US kept track of how many of their cars were >registered in each state and reported the results as a percentage of >population. Turned out that Alaska had the highest percentage of Ferraris per >population, and he said, "I own both of them!" >In any case, the language map is an interesting one for those of us here in >the US. Just be aware and perhaps reread Mark Monmonier's book "How to Lie with >Maps."   > >Bill Warren >wjwarren@aol.com > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: "J.B. Post" To: Subject: [MapHist] Misleading maps Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:32:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl A good point was made that we shouldn't ask more of a map (or anything, for that matter) than it announces it is doing. Some years ago, an atlas of US cities had one map showing the Catholic population of Los Angeles and one area was 100% Catholic. It was pointed out that the area was essentially industrial with no population except for a small corner which had a few Latino households. This could mislead, but the information was not incorrect. The old Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas certainly did not give a good picture of the varying population densities of the Los Angeles area, but they were not designed to do so on a national level. Rand McNally found it necessary to modify the data for its users of the COMMERCIAL ATLAS, but this doesn't nullify the SMSA. Few bounded areas will have uniform distribution of whatever it is that is being depicted and when trying to show distribution, what one chooses to show will make a difference: "0," "0-20," "1-10," "greater than 50%," and so on. Rather than saying maps lie, let's say any map can mislead the unwary even if it is as accurate as possible in what is depicted. JBP _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:20:50 -0400 From: jsk@gamewood.net Subject: [MapHist] Misleading maps To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl ------ Original Message ------ From: J.B. Post To: Sent: Jul 31, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: [MapHist] Misleading maps > A good point was made that we shouldn't ask more of a map (or anything, >for that matter) than it announces it is doing. Some years ago, an atlas of >US cities had one map showing the Catholic population of Los Angeles and one >area was 100% Catholic. It was pointed out that the area was essentially >industrial with no population except for a small corner which had a few >Latino households. This could mislead, but the information was not >incorrect. > > The old Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas certainly did not give a >good picture of the varying population densities of the Los Angeles area, >but they were not designed to do so on a national level. Rand McNally found >it necessary to modify the data for its users of the COMMERCIAL ATLAS, but >this doesn't nullify the SMSA. Few bounded areas will have uniform >distribution of whatever it is that is being depicted and when trying to >show distribution, what one chooses to show will make a difference: "0," >"0-20," "1-10," "greater than 50%," and so on. Rather than saying maps lie, >let's say any map can mislead the unwary even if it is as accurate as >possible in what is depicted. > > JBP > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:20:51 -0400 From: jsk@gamewood.net Subject: [MapHist] Misleading maps To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl ------ Original Message ------ From: J.B. Post To: Sent: Jul 31, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: [MapHist] Misleading maps > A good point was made that we shouldn't ask more of a map (or anything, >for that matter) than it announces it is doing. Some years ago, an atlas of >US cities had one map showing the Catholic population of Los Angeles and one >area was 100% Catholic. It was pointed out that the area was essentially >industrial with no population except for a small corner which had a few >Latino households. This could mislead, but the information was not >incorrect. > > The old Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas certainly did not give a >good picture of the varying population densities of the Los Angeles area, >but they were not designed to do so on a national level. Rand McNally found >it necessary to modify the data for its users of the COMMERCIAL ATLAS, but >this doesn't nullify the SMSA. Few bounded areas will have uniform >distribution of whatever it is that is being depicted and when trying to >show distribution, what one chooses to show will make a difference: "0," >"0-20," "1-10," "greater than 50%," and so on. Rather than saying maps lie, >let's say any map can mislead the unwary even if it is as accurate as >possible in what is depicted. > > JBP > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:27:20 -0400 From: jsk@gamewood.net Subject: [MapHist] Cartographica Extraordinaire To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sorry about that duplicated message a minute ago. I hit the wrong button here. I don't know if this had been posted, but if some of you haven't taken a look at this book by Rumsey and Punt, you should. At first glance it appears as a coffee table book (and it could fit that description), but it is more. In addition to the striking format, and the desire I might get to live in Rumsey's downstairs gallery for a few months, the way the book is presented is visually striking coupled with a careful layout (I think). The story of how this came together is intriguing, and perhaps a bit of a parable about what may come with cyberspace, at least for the better. I've copied the link below, to Rumsey's own site, where further ordering details may be seen. Joel Kovarsky _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl From: Dyallen2@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:08:42 EDT Subject: [MapHist] Re: Language Map To: maphist@geog.uu.nl X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl
    The MLA language map does more than display data at the county level.  Its real power is that it has an option to display language distribution at the zip code level.  It is true that county-level data can be misleading, but the zip code data can be very revealing.  Thus, one can find out in which neighborhoods of Los Angeles County Spanish or Armenian speakers live.  This information is also available from the Census Bureau's American Factfinder site, but the MLA site is much faster and easier to use.
 
    I used the site recently to examine the demographic breakdown of the area near San Diego where I live.  The area has quite a few Arabic speakers and immigrants from North Africa, along with Hispanics and others.  I found the detailed breakdown of which minorities live where quite fascinating.
 
    An interesting sidelight on this subject is an article that appeared on page A10 of the New York Times on Friday July 30.  It describes a controversy about the Census Bureau having revealed to the Department of Homeland Security detailed zip-code level information about how many people with Arab backgrounds live in certain zip codes.  In view of the fact that this information is easily available at the MLA site, one wonders what the fuss is about.  Maybe the information the Census Bureau gave out to the Homeland Secuity agency is more detailed, but if so it isn't evident from the article.
 
David Allen
La Mesa, CA
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:34:34 -0500 From: John & Jill Rado User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Pascal,
    Are you looking for more cloth maps? I have the Post WWII British sheet covering France and Spain, essentially the updated version or your 43 AB printed by MI 9 in 1943. I have other sheets to spare as well.
John Rado
Cloth Map Collector and Researcher

Route nostalgie wrote:
I like wonderfull your web site on the Silk maps.
It's a interesting work of collecting.

I have 2 WWII silk maps in my collection http://oldmaps.free.fr/livre/mecamaps03.htm also in this web page on back
the maps in the military jacket is a current reproduction, by Avirex Copy Right 1985.

Cordialement,

Pascal Pannetier (France)
Magazine Route Nostalgie
Association Auto Mobilier Collections
routenostalgie@free.fr http://oldmaps.free.fr http://routenostalgie.free.fr http://automobi.free.fr http://memoireenroute.free.fr




-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl [mailto:owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl]De la part de John & Jill Rado Envoyé : mercredi 28 juillet 2004 02:11 À : maphist@geog.uu.nl Objet : Re: [MapHist] Colour printing on linen


Dear Catherine and other MapHist'ers,
    I am a dedicated cloth map collector and researcher. I have been collecting both civilian and military cloth maps from the late 1800's to the 1990's. I have amassed a great amount of lithographic information and resources in the 13 yrs of collecting. Should you have specific questions, you can reach me through my website (which has only a small amount of historical references listed - far more exist): http://www.silkmaps.com

John

Paul S. Seaver wrote:

  
Dear Catherine and other MapHisters,

Others on the list will know far more than I about the technology and chemistry that comes into play here, but I thought I'd note a couple of variables that might need consideration.

The first is the intended use of any map to be printed on linen.  Was it to be folded and used out in the field, or was it intended for a sedentary life on someone's wall? In the former instance, the flexibility/ brittleness of the printing ink would be a major concern.

The second variable would be the map's likely exposure to light, especially to direct sunlight. According to pp. 144-45 of THE ARTIST'S HANDBOOK OF MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES (by Ralph Mayer / updated by Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, 5th ed., 1991), there was a sea change around 1900 in the expected permanence of many pigments. From p. 144: "In the early twentieth century, pigments of greatly improved light resistance  began to appear on the market and were adopted by makers of decorative paints, printing inks, and other industrial products."

Best regards,

Kirsten A. Seaver

    
Dear MapHisters,

Is anybody able to give me the answer, or to point me in the right direction
to find the answer for myself, about the technology of colour printing for
maps on fabrics, specifically  LINEN (late 19th century)?
 Is there, for example, any technical reason for NOT using one colour as opposed to another (never mind the aesthetics or symbolism) -- eg is blue
'better' for some reason than red, or green or whatever...?
I'd be grateful to have a line to pass onto a young researcher.
Many thanks
Catherine



Dr Catherine Delano-Smith
Research Fellow, Institute of Historical Research Editor, IMAGO MUNDI The International Journal for the History of Cartography
285 Nether Street
London N3 1PD
U.K.

For editorial matters, please see IMAGO MUNDI's homepage at < http://www.maphistory.info/imago.html > (for journal content). For all matters relating to  subscriptions and

      
 sales from the publishers, Taylor & Francis (Routledge), see
        
<http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/03085694.html>.


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
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List Information: http://www.maphist.info
      

    


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List Information: http://www.maphist.info


_______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.info

  
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 X-Original-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Delivered-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:35:28 -0700 From: "Duane F. Marble" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax; CDonDemand-Dom) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: maphist@geog.uu.nl Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cartographica Extraordinaire X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Sender: owner-maphist@pop.geog.uu.nl Reply-To: maphist@geog.uu.nl List-Info: http://www.maphist.info X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at geog.uu.nl Yes, and the version available from Amazon.com is discounted $25! jsk@gamewood.net wrote: >Sorry about that duplicated message a minute ago. I hit the wrong button here. I don't know if this had been posted, but if some of you haven't taken a look at this book by Rumsey and Punt, you should. At first glance it appears as a coffee table book (and it could fit that description), but it is more. In addition to the striking format, and the desire I might get to live in Rumsey's downstairs gallery for a few months, the way the book is presented is visually striking coupled with a careful layout (I think). The story of how this came together is intriguing, and perhaps a bit of a parable about what may come with cyberspace, at least for the better. I've copied the link below, to Rumsey's own site, where further ordering details may be seen. > > > > Joel Kovarsky > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography >hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. >The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of >the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of >Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for >the views of the author. >List Information: http://www.maphist.info > > > -- Dr. Duane F. Marble Email: marble.1@osu.edu 2226 Primrose Lane Telephone: (541) 902-8837 Florence, OR 97439 Cell: (541) 991-1730 The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit. - Nelson Henderson (with a tip of the hat to Alice Hudson of the NYPL) _______________________________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.info